Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

Here I played two hands at Party Poker where both times I had pocket Jacks. The betting of my opponents was very strong. These were players who usually call and check most of the time. Is it right to call down with an overcard on the board that these players were representing?

Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: CasinoR7 is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CasinoR7 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, CasinoR7 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CasinoR7 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CasinoR7 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CasinoR7 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CasinoR7 calls.

River: (8.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CasinoR7 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CasinoR7 calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CasinoR7 has Jh Jd (one pair, jacks).
MP1 has Ac Qs (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins 10.75 BB. </font>
Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: CasinoR7 is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">CasinoR7 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CasinoR7 raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, CasinoR7 calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, CasinoR7 calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CasinoR7 has Jh Js (two pair, jacks and twos).
BB has Qc Kh (two pair, queens and twos).
Outcome: BB wins 8.25 BB. </font>

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

Hand 1: against a passive opponent who caps, once an ace shows up on the flop and you are raised you can safely lay it down there or on the turn.

Hand 2: I unfortunately think villain has a Q here a lot, but I think it's okay to call down hoping he has a misplayed spade draw or A7.

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

what type of hands are they check-callingwith

what range of hand do you think they would be raising with

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

The second villian would check and call with any medium or small pair, but he would bet strongly with flush/straight draws even on the turn. I though he could also be on a flush draw here.

The first villian almost always cheked and called when he was involved in the hand. So he must have had a strong hand here, but I called him down anyway.

I recently read the post by Ed Miller to call down marginal hands when the pot is already big, but I think I am doing it too often now:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&amp;vc=1

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

In reverse order: hand 2 is fine. Villain made a dumb play on the flop and got lucky.

Hand 1 will eat away at your bankroll over time if you keep on calling down in those kind of situations. There's a complete order of magnitude between "an overcard" and an Ace, because many goobers will play literally any Ace. Once someone who's loose-passive raises you on that kind of flop, your Jacks are about as good as month-old milk. The only reason you could possibly have for not folding immediately to the flop raise is if you're concerned that Villain (or someone else at the table) will use your ability to bet/fold against you by bluff-raising a similar flop next time it happens. If all of your opponents are too stupid to pick up on that, then fold the flop. In no circumstance save hitting your two-outer should you go past the turn, though.

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

So in the first example I should not have called down, certainly not down the river. But should I have bet the flop with an Ace showing, or should I have checked that flop? The raise from villain is pretty strong here and gives away that he has a good hand. But what if I had checked and villain had made a bet on the flop?

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

Think about what a bet accomplishes.

Do you bet "to get information" or do you bet to represent a hand w/ an A?

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
So in the first example I should not have called down, certainly not down the river. But should I have bet the flop with an Ace showing, or should I have checked that flop? The raise from villain is pretty strong here and gives away that he has a good hand. But what if I had checked and villain had made a bet on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wish I could give you good advice, but you're just in one of the crappiest situations possible, where you're behind to almost everything and OOP to boot. There's really no good solution here.

You're laying yourself 9½-1 to bet the flop, so he doesn't have to fold KK/QQ that often for the bet to be a winning play. But you can't call down here, not even a single bet, because you beat nothing.

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
The second villian would check and call with any medium or small pair, but he would bet strongly with flush/straight draws even on the turn. I though he could also be on a flush draw here.

The first villian almost always cheked and called when he was involved in the hand. So he must have had a strong hand here, but I called him down anyway.

I recently read the post by Ed Miller to call down marginal hands when the pot is already big, but I think I am doing it too often now:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&amp;vc=1


[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see any type of draw on the flop in HAND 1... you said he would call with a pairs?

so unless you think he's raising the 9 or would push a small pair here (over multiple streets) just fold ... there isn't much else he's betting

IMO hand two is also a fold (but sometimes a call) - this is a donkey that just hit his hand more times than not (if you don't think he's tricky .. which you don't)
you're getting about 3:1 on a call down (do you think this is something you beat often enough to call down?

<font color="red">edit</font>
don't post results

Re: Pocket Jacks and overcards on the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
So in the first example I should not have called down, certainly not down the river. But should I have bet the flop with an Ace showing, or should I have checked that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't go far wrong just check/folding here.