AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

In turbos you end up in quite a few situations with 2 people all in ahead of you (or you call an all-in and someone else comes in behind you).

I'd always figured AK wasn't that bad in a 3-way pot. If I dominate one Ace and I'm a coinflip with a small pair, that's not so bad, right? well, I just ran the numbers and to my suprise, AK barely wins 1/3rd of the time. You might as well fold.

cards %win %lose %tie EV
3c 3h 45.04 54.40 0.56 0.452
As Kh 32.17 64.22 3.60 0.339
Qs Ah 19.18 77.21 3.60 0.209

Even against 2 smaller pairs, AK is only about 38% (which is certainly worth doing, but it's not as close to a coinflip as I would have thought).

Anyway, I figured if this was a suprise to me, it might be to others as well.

Edit: AKs gets up to around 38% as well.

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

38% is just over two to one to win, no? So with two all ins ahead of you, you get just the right pot odds vs these two hands. Only Kings and Aces have you smashed though, I think.

I think the question is though, do you want to take the ~1% (or whatever) edge with pot odds or wait till the maniacs bust each other out and attempt to outplay them later.

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

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I think the question is though, do you want to take the ~1% (or whatever) edge with pot odds or wait till the maniacs bust each other out and attempt to outplay them later.

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big stack maniacs are hard to beat with few chips in a turbo tournament...sometimes ya just gotta cross your fingers =\

-eroc

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

Well, calling all-in for 1% seems poor. Shoving and getting called, you'll take it since you might have just stolen the pot.

If 2 people are all-in in front of me (and have me covered) then I can bet one probably has a pair and I should fold and wait for a better than 1% edge.

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

99.5% of players shouldn't pass up a 0.6% EV edge.

Try inputting a plausible range for your opponents 3-way, you start to get a better picture of how 3-way situations work.

Finding a specific 3-way scenario in where AK isn't a 1:1 in a situation where it only needs 2:1 on average is not going to make a plausible case.

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

Yes I'd have to call unless I knew one had AA or KK, for the reasons posted by eroc and Fortuna above.

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

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Yes I'd have to call unless I knew one had AA or KK.

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You're not grasping the point of the numbers in the OP. ANY pair is bad for you in a 3-way all-in, not just KK/AA. You're crushed against AA/KK of course, but any pair puts you in a near break even spot. Better to wait and try for an all-in with an advantage.

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

Lots of good analysis -- let's take it one step further.

This is why it's hard these days in turbos to ring up an ROI of more than about 20% against non-idiotic opponents. (I miss the pre-Goodlatte days.) You don't have a ton of time to wait for perfect situations. You gotta take small edges like this, or end up too far behind to catch the big stacks without a miracle.

You'll make money pushing over the long haul. You just will make it more slowly and with more annoying bustouts than you'd like.

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

This thread makes me sad.

I hope that when I open it again tomorrow someone will have pointed out some of the obvious flaws in the above posts.

-Steve

Re: AK is crappy multi-way all-in hand...
 

[ QUOTE ]
99.5% of players shouldn't pass up a 0.6% EV edge.

Try inputting a plausible range for your opponents 3-way, you start to get a better picture of how 3-way situations work.

Finding a specific 3-way scenario in where AK isn't a 1:1 in a situation where it only needs 2:1 on average is not going to make a plausible case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I put plausible ranges at 22+ and A2+ for starters. You throw in a few JQ type hands and it doesn't really get any better.

cards %win %lose %tie EV
Ad Kh 34.93 64.83 0.24 0.350
5c 5d 30.94 68.82 0.24 0.310
Qs Js 33.89 65.87 0.24 0.340

If you can put NEITHER player on a pair, it gets good. But one all in and one call? Awfully good chance someone has a pair.

AK is going to be a bit better overall as you might catch QJ shoving, called by AT, then you have AK. That's the dream scenario though. Most of the 3-way all-ins I see have at least one person with a pair.