2nd nuts on river
 

Does an unknown always have the nuts here or do they have something else often enough for me to make this call? (i.e. 28%+ of the time)

What odds do I need to call here?

Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $23.75
UTG+1: $27.30
CO: $27.10
Button: $47.25
SB: $22.75
Hero: $130.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero checks.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1.75, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $0.85</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($4.3, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $2.5</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($11.8, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises all-in $23.45</font>, Button folds, Hero...

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

Against an unknown, you're taking this flop and turn line? Blimey, I want in on your game. And I always call this river.

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

You just always fold top pair to tiny position bets? Or turn your hand into a bluff by raising?

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

fold

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

I've just started Omaha so the chance that I'm way off is pretty big.

Isn't this a pretty bad flop out of position? I'd just let it go right there.

Turn, meh. You picked up a 2nd nut flush so it pretty much means more trouble then actual improvement. There is no way this hand is turning into a sure thing for you.

River, here you get severely punished for pursuing this hand out of position. The way UTG+1 played I'd say he has the goods. Especially as he can assume that you've made a flush too by the way you kept calling. So now you've lost 11,35$ more than you should have on this hand.

I try to have at least some redraws when pursuing hands like this. The way I see it you had only a couple of runner runners going for you on the flop and even then you could still be beaten.

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

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I try to have at least some redraws when pursuing hands like this. The way I see it you had only a couple of runner runners going for you on the flop and even then you could still be beaten.

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I don't need redraws if I have the best hand on the flop.

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Turn, meh. You picked up a 2nd nut flush so it pretty much means more trouble then actual improvement. There is no way this hand is turning into a sure thing for you.

[/ QUOTE ]There aren't that many hands that are going to be a "sure thing" - you won't be a winning player if you only bet when you have the nuts. And it's rare that someone else has the nuts either.

You say I'm severely punished on the river but you don't whether I won the hand? As played, I'm sometimes ahead and sometimes not. My question to the forum is how often I am ahead and therefore whether or not this is a profitable place to call.

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

My answer from the forum is call.

My other answer from the forum is you're mad to play top pair 2nd kicker like this. Just check-fold.

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

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Quote:
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I try to have at least some redraws when pursuing hands like this. The way I see it you had only a couple of runner runners going for you on the flop and even then you could still be beaten.


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I don't need redraws if I have the best hand on the flop.

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If the best hand is top pair I think you definately need redraws with 2 others still in the hand. Especially out of position.

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There aren't that many hands that are going to be a "sure thing" - you won't be a winning player if you only bet when you have the nuts. And it's rare that someone else has the nuts either.

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I fully agree, but you didn't bet. You called. Twice. Telegraphing the hand you were on.

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You say I'm severely punished on the river but you don't whether I won the hand? As played, I'm sometimes ahead and sometimes not. My question to the forum is how often I am ahead and therefore whether or not this is a profitable place to call.

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Well if you actually called this river push from a passive player who didn't do anything until the flush card hit and was bet into by another passive player, I'd say that you're going to loose a lot of money in these situations.

Unless you have a note on this player saying that he bluffs like this often. (which would make him a dream to play against)

As I said before, I'm just starting Omaha and have a lot to learn, but I don't see how the way you played most of this hand is not a big leak.

Don't worry, I'll be posting some hands soon and I'm pretty sure that it's not going to be pretty [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

Top pair, no draw is behind overcards and a draw and if he's wrapping and flushing, its way behind, even if you technically "have the best hand" with just TP2K

Re: 2nd nuts on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Top pair, no draw is behind overcards and a draw and if he's wrapping and flushing, its way behind, even if you technically "have the best hand" with just TP2K

[/ QUOTE ]This is true but for a half-pot bet you only need 25% equity if you can check it down. I wouldn't have called a pot-sized bet on the flop but half-pot is really weak and makes me think he's drawing. On the turn even if I don't have the best hand, I'm getting close to the right odds to draw to the flush so long as no-one has the nut flush draw (and if they do there's a good chance I'm ahead anyway).