WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

Villian is some dude decked out in Ohio State gear. He keeps telling everyone how it is his first live tournament and he was shooting for 540k at day end and that he was just happy to be here. He is a nit and not playing a lot of hands, but did call off almost all his stack with 88 in the BB when button shoved earlier. He has open folded AJo a few times against a raise saying "I know all you guys would be going in with this," essentially he is a totally predictable player.

OSU Fan opens for 100k @ 4k/8k/1k ante in MP1 (he has 500k stack)
My initial read is that this gross overbet obviously isn't AA or KK, the initial thought before looking at my cards is that it is 88-QQ, AK, maybe AQs. I am in BB and see two red Jacks and make him count out his stack and jam for 560k and he tanks. The way I see it I can't really flat this in the BB so it becomes a fold/jam situation. Seeing how nitty he is makes this move a double edged sword, on the one hand he is going to fold a LOT of hands here (including AK imo) but his range is also pretty tight.

Anyhoo, I don't think there is much debate on the line, but my real question is something I realized on the flight home. It is my impression that at this year's WSOP there was a rule where you couldn't say your actual hand before making an action to get a read. If you did your hand would be dead. Is this correct?

Back to the action...
After my jam the villian sits back and starts talking saying "I have the 3rd best hand, I don't know if I can fold, I have the 3rd best hand." After saying this he called and flipped up his hand. Does this constitute breaking that rule? If I would have not flipped my cards and called the floor would I have had a case?

It's all a moot point anyway as even if I knew about said rule I doubt I would want to hose someone out of the WSOP on such a silly infraction, but I am just curious if this was technically "against the WSOP's rules"
~J

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

Once you have no action left I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what he says does it? I suppose he could be saying something to get a read on you, but I'm not sure they would've ever declared his hand dead.

AFAIK this wasn't cause to make a person's hand dead - I was told specifically at the Venetian that it was against the rules to talk about your hand AT ALL, but people broke this rule consistently and no one was ever penalized with a dead hand or penalty. As for WSOP I did not ever hear the TD say this was a rule, and while I know you can get penalties for exposing hands I believe the only rule that causes a hand to be DEAD was the cell-phone rule.

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

Jurollo--

Congratulations on the great run in the Main Event. In what I've seen in live tournaments I respectfully disagree with your read on "OSU Fan." But you were there and I wasn't.

There are usually overarching spirit-of-the-game and floorperson's-discretion rules in tournaments, so even if there were such a rule as you describe it would not be "against the rules" not to rule his hand dead. (Especially since those rules are often designed to prevent the same things as rules against checking the nuts last to act on the river are... which is certainly not these sorts of mutterings.)

I don't know what rules were specifically in place at this year's WSOP; you might have more luck in the B&M forum.

Congratulations again on a successful Series.

--Nate

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

Justin,

I think that very often the player that you described is open limping with 88-TT and sometimes AK too. I also would not be too quick to take KK out of his range either. Before I got to the results I did not like the range you were putting him on. Then again, you were there and it was your read.

As per your rules question, I think you might get a better response in B&M. I am happy to hear that you did not try to pull a David Singer technicality angle shoot to declare his hand dead.

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

This is purely curiousity anyway, thanks for the responses

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

[/mod ball licking]

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

"3rd best hand" isn't clear enough. could be AKs too?

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

nah, no case.

i pretty much instantly fold jj here.

Re: WSOP Rules / Dead Hand / Gross Day 4 spot with JJ
 

I know timex will agree with me, but I'm not sure I wouldn't try to declare his hand dead if he said he had QQ (obviously even less sure of what I'd do in the given situation) and I've frowned heavily on all the other angle-shooting stuff lately. Just don't think this qualifies as an angle-shoot as it's not like we're deceiving anyone.

You play by the rules as they are written, regardless of whether or not you agree with them.

And when I heard about this hand from Paul the other day I too thought I didn't like JJ vs his range but it really is absolutely impossible to tell without being in your shoes.

And congratulations on both the finish and in the apparent satisfaction, or lack of bitterness really, that you're taking in it despite being pretty damn close to an obnoxious amount of money.