5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

Full Tilt Poker Game #2837286046: $55,000 Guarantee (21301817), Table 28 - 3000/6000 Ante 750 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:24:09 ET - 2007/07/03
Seat 1: ArchitectWPT (186,628)
Seat 2: mhrep (253,908)
Seat 3: acap11 (199,066)
Seat 4: luckychewy (212,300)
Seat 5: PearlJammed (333,098)
ArchitectWPT antes 750
mhrep antes 750
acap11 antes 750
luckychewy antes 750
PearlJammed antes 750
acap11 posts the small blind of 3,000
luckychewy posts the big blind of 6,000
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to luckychewy [Ad Qh]
PearlJammed folds
ArchitectWPT raises to 18,000
mhrep folds
acap11 folds
luckychewy has 15 seconds left to act
luckychewy raises to 53,550

ok so i'm not so much questioning the hand itself(though the following will be directly related to the hand), more so a general theme which i believe to be correct but can't put my finger on why. this theme being 3-betting with 30bb stacks. let me expand.

firstly, he has been reasonably active, nothing extensive, but opening enough pots that my hand is ahead of his range for sure. secondly, i have only 3-bet once at this final table vs. a button opener to which they folded so i believe he will fold AJ and other such hands to a 3-bet, though i have been proven wrong before so who knows.

a problem i see here is that my hand is way ahead of his range and if i flat call i have no doubt i can show a long term profit. on the other hand AQ is so far ahead of his range i think 3-betting will show immediate profit with any two, let alone a hand that if called i flop well with.

my problem here is that if i 3-bet, i have always been a firm believe in having a plan with stacks this size. my plan would be to fold to the shove. this feels wrong but is it really? i need ~35% equity to call a 4-bet shove to break even. i don't know this player very well but i would assume he shoves 99+ aq+ at the loosest(reasonable?) and calling would be damn near break even.

quite frankly i don't know if he shoves this wide or looser or tighter, in this case should i just flat and not confuse myself to the point of turning AQo into a bluff because i am unsure of his 4-betting range? it seems as if what i SHOULD have done is 3-bet some bitches earlier w/ whatever so i can make this a clear 3-bet/call shove w/ AQ because my image will be such that i can safely assume he will 4-bet as wide as 99+ aq+ and possibly wider. thoughts?

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

I don't think you should be 3betting IF you plan on folding to a shove.

Then again, if you 3bet, I don't think you should be folding to a shove...

With these stack sizes I like 3betting to like 55-65K and shoving almost any flop.

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
With these stack sizes I like 3betting to like 55-65K and shoving almost any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

making a larger 3-bet will decrease my equity needed to call to the point where the break even situation i described in the op would probably become a call. can i/should i use this to my advantage in a spot like this?

EDIT: to add a little bit...by 3-betting larger calling the 4-bet will almost certainly be +cEV where before i wasn't sure. i feel like other times(possibly correctly without good reason) i 3-bet and call a shove just because i intuitively know that 3-bet/folding would be bad. what i don't realize is that if i looked at the hand before my 3-bet and after the guy 4-bets, is that 3-betting is probably +cEV while calling the 4-bet is -cEV.

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

If you have not been very active, then we can assume he gives you a 3 betting range of 99+ AQ+. Thus if he comes over the top, you can probably fold pretty confidently, even though with pot odds itll be close. However, I know at least in my game, I am 3 betting a lot of hands so that it turns a 4 bet situation more to a call since his 4 betting range widens a little bit.

As for the hand, I think there are a few ways to play it. If he is a rather tight opponent, I dont mind just calling and trying to get it in when he was raising rather light. If he is looose, then dont mind 3 betting and getting it in on a 4 bet.

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

3bet/shoving a king high flop is pretty puketastic.

i'd echo what crispy said if you've been 3betting rarely, i would rather 3bet a weaker hand than AQ such as a weaker ace, smaller pair or even a sooted connector, because AQ would fit quit tidily in the bottom one or two hands of the range he'll assign for you. as you've described how you've been playing, i like a call and then play pokah, even if you are OOP. and obv if you hit the ace treat it as the nuts.

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

In the hand in question, 3/bet call for sure. 77/88 are def getting pushed, AJ lots of the time and KQ too.

In general, I'm not a huge fan of flatting in spots like this. It could just be that people give me less respect than most, but I find myself getting pushed back on here by a range wide enough that calling the 4 bet is def correct. Also, my postflop play isn't that great, but don't you find it hard to play these pots when you miss the flop?

Btw, I am "mhrep." Sick beat [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

For me, I think it really depends on how I have been playing in the last few tables and what my image is to the other players.

If I have been 3 betting light or regularly in any case, I definitely 3 bet here and I am happy to call the 4 bet, although I might reraise to around 64K so I can push the flop if he decides to flat call.

If I have been playing more passively, I think I flat call this some of the time, as we can probably win a bigger pot more often post flop if he tries to push us off our hand, or he might shut down given that we have been tight, and we take the pot anyway.

My other main consideration in general, would be whether Villian is capable of 4 betting light, which in this case, as stack sizes are pretty nicely lined up for a 4 bet, I am happy to 3 bet/call a shove.

Against an unknown and if you plan to fold to a 4 bet, I would certainly call here.

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

i think raise folding is really bad, maybe this is a leak but im raise/calling (pretty fast too), maybe its because i get played back light idk. Id rather flat then raise/fold.

Djk123--your mhrep on FTP?!?

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think raise folding is really bad, maybe this is a leak but im raise/calling (pretty fast too), maybe its because i get played back light idk. Id rather flat then raise/fold.

Djk123--your mhrep on FTP?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol yes. Why? Did I suck out on you or something [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 5 handed ftp 55k final table hand
 

I would have just gone allin PF with a hand like AQ and other mediocre hands, while MAYBE raising less with my biggest hands and my bluff hands. Mainly I want to discourage pocket pairs from calling so I'll do go allin, but also for balance I'll do it with JJ-88 type hands. You are a little deeper for this than I'd like, but I think 30x BB just makes the cut. I just don't see the point of raising 1/3rd of your stack.