NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

Recently I've been really paranoid about playing top pair when out of position. This hand illustrates some of my concerns. Note that although I've limped from the SB on this occassion I'm more interested in developing a plan for the rest of the hand rather than whether completing is correct.

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.20
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Cut off calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB (poster) checks.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($0.95, 5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 bets $1</font>, Cut off folds, Button calls, Hero ???

I don't consider my self a weak tight player - I run at about 15/8/4.4 but I feel lost in these hands. I feel I should be keeping the pot small with marginal 1 pair hands OOP but also that I'm giving up value.

The problem is if I bet here at this level I expect to get calls and end up playing a guessing game for the rest of the hand. If I check raise I'm building a too big a pot right?

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

Completing sucks, but we can ignore that for now.

I think leading or c/c is fine on the flop, but c/r is horrible. What hands will call a raise that you beat?

On the turn i c/f most of the time.

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

Uhm, this really sucks. You could raise this preflop, but you'd still be OOP for the rest of the time. But as you have pointed out, not raising will force you to make much tougher decisions postflop.
As played, I'd c/c this flop and probably c/f the turn if he bets again.

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

I usually donkbet the flop or c/r.

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Completing sucks, but we can ignore that for now.

I think leading or c/c is fine on the flop, but c/r is horrible. What hands will call a raise that you beat?

On the turn i c/f most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is completing terrible?

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

Yeah, I complete this 100% of the time.

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I complete this 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is my default play here. I could see raising though.

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

I generally will complete from the SB with any hand that I would limp behind from the button and maybe even a few extra hands like almost any 2 suited cards.

However I like to lead out at the flop for about 2/3 - 3/4 pot when I flop top pair, and also if I flop 2nd pair on 9 high board or lower.

I think by just checking you are letting the other players determine the pot size, which isn't really good. I like to bet out, as I would bet out here if I flopped 2 pair or a set or a good draw. I want to be in control of the pot size for as long as possible.

At this point in the hand after you checked the flop and he bets, the pot is only 10bb, it is still a relatively small pot. I would probably just call and check it to him again and see what he does on the turn. I don't see how he could have a real strong hand given that he checked an OOP post. I wouldn't be beyond check raising the turn. I think you see worse Jacks here alot.

Also, you can generally tell that he is not much of a player given his post from MP1. And lastly, what are the effective stack sizes, that could be helpful.

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

PF: I always complete this. Plus, I'd rather save the steal attempts for when I have trash; QJo is more profitable to see a cheap flop.

To hold you over until you become more confident I offer this:

Check flop to see what happens
* tend to fold if:
- someone behind bets the size of the pot
-- especially if he bets into players who have not acted yet
- someone bets 1/2 pot or more and someone else calls, with more players behind to act
- someone bets, no onecalls before you, but there are still people to act after you
* tend to call (but folding is still okay) if:
- someone bets weakly (~1/2 pot) and there's one or zero callers before you
- someone bets weakly, there's a caller, but you close the action.
*other:
-I based the above on decent top pair good kicker. with TPTK, call and see showdown more often and TPNK dump it to any betting.
- Also, if your top pair is weak, e.g., K9 on 963r, fold it to any bet because you are too vulnerable.
- be more likely to fold if the board is very drawy: you'll often get out drawn and will always be under pressure
*Next, on the turn:
-check fold to a strong bet (see above) check call to a weak bet.
(even Sklansky says it is okay to call a bet on the flop planning to fold to a bet on the turn. Of course, it is not common to do this)
*River:
-check fold to a bet that represents the same pot percentage or higher as the turn, check call a proportioanlly smaller bet.
-if villain checked behind on the turn, bet a small amount on the river, but fold to a raise

Playing this way reduces risk and reward, sometimes is -EV and sometimes +EV, but should hopefully expose you to the various circumstances w/o costing a ton. Then you'll grow beyond it.

Re: NL 20: Feeling lost OOP
 

lol at people c/c and then c/f the turn. that's so horrible i don't even know where to begin.

if you c/c the flop, any villain with position could be betting w/ ATC. on the turn, he could be betting any draw again.

i likely would not c/c all the way to the river, but throwing in a c/r on this flop is fine. in most likely hood, you have the best hand anyways.

again, yes, it is difficult to play OOP, but you have top pair on a flop where many people could be betting straight draws as well as middle pairs/smaller PP's.