another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

very loose passive 10/20 game. Hero is dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the SB. Seven-way action for one bet pre-flop.

Flop 7 players (7sb)
T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
checks around

Turn 7 players (3.5bb)
T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img][6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

should hero check or bet?

i checked, it checked to the BU who bet

should hero now call, fold, or raise?

thanks for your time

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop.....
checks around

[/ QUOTE ]Tweak - I'd bet the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn .....
should hero check or bet?

[/ QUOTE ]Bet.

[ QUOTE ]
i checked, it checked to the BU who bet

should hero now call, fold, or raise?

[/ QUOTE ]Call. (I guess "BU" means "button").

You can't be missing your opportunities to bet. You can't tell where you stand when you check and then somebody bets behind you.

You should bet the flop if only to see what will happen. You don't want to be raised, but you do want everybody to contribute to your possible winning draw or get out of your pot. You don't want opponents with better low draws than you getting a free card. And if you bet here and also when you flop trip jacks with this flop, it's more difficult for your opponents to put you on cards when you flop top set. When you check the flop, it should usually (but not always) be because you intend to fold to a bet. Check if you fully expect somebody behind you to bet for you, or if you fully expect somebody behind you to raise if you bet but bet if you check.

Then, having not bet the flop, you should bet the turn, because (1) nobody bet the flop and (2) the turn substantially improves your draw. You don't want to get raised, but if you get several callers, then you have enough outs for the bet to have favorable odds.

Buzz

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

guess i'm playing too tight, i was check/folding the flop unless there was no raise and several callers. i was basically looking for something like 10-1 odds on the flop.

was surprised see you advocate betting the flop...definite eye-opener for this weak-tight newbie. i'll be looking for more spots like this the next time i play. thanks.

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
guess i'm playing too tight, i was check/folding the flop unless there was no raise and several callers. i was basically looking for something like 10-1 odds on the flop.

was surprised see you advocate betting the flop...definite eye-opener for this weak-tight newbie. i'll be looking for more spots like this the next time i play. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ] Not so fast. I agree with you that betting the flop is bad. I too would check and only call getting favorable odds. Im not sure why buzz advocates betting this flop with merely a straigh draw and some backdoor draws on a two spade board when youre OOP.

Hoever, I WOULD bet the turn for sure. Theres just way too many cards that will make you a hand on the river, and while some of those hands wont be the nuts, I still think a bet needs to go in right now. Theres a line between prudence and nut peddling. The fact that there are so many players in the pot makes me actually MORE inclined to bet for value here.

As played I would flat call the buttons bet. I thought this was obvious at first, and then had second thoughts. The notion of promoting your low draw or straight draws is mildly attractive, but in the end I dont think that its a play that actually works/helps you all that often.

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

I'll bet this flop a lot. Depends on the game to some extent, but I like betting here b/c of the amount of money in the pot, the information it gives me when someone calls/raises.

The turn is a must bet, but it's not a situation you want to check raise. You've got a plethera of outs on the turn, so you have to bet.

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not so fast. I agree with you that betting the flop is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Fiasco - Why is it bad?

[ QUOTE ]
I too would check and only call getting favorable odds. I'm not sure why buzz advocates betting this flop with merely a straight draw and some backdoor draws on a two spade board when you're OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]I like betting the flop for several reasons.<ul type="square">1. I think Hero is ahead (is the most likely winner against six random hands).
2. Betting the flop makes Hero more difficult to read when he bets other flops on later deals.
3. Betting the flop makes play more difficult for opponents.
4. Betting the flop may cause opponents to fold better low draws.
5. Opponents might fold baby spade flush draws at this point, improving Hero's chances to win if he makes a straight. (Someone might not think a baby flush worth drawing to, but would think it worth playing if made. It's the difference between drawing for a non-nut hand and playing a non-nut hand.)
6. I get more information if I bet than if I check.[/list]That's off the top of my head. I probably could come up with other reasons if I thought about it longer. The above list probably misses something.

I don't know.... maybe it's a matter of playing style. I'm constantly trying to get a fix on my opponents, to make sense of what they are doing and guess how they might be thinking.

I wouldn't bet every possible hand I could be holding here. But I'd bet almost every hand I thought playable after this flop. Well.... not necessarily.... for example, not if the person sitting to my left was almost sure to raise and knock out all my customers. I don't want to play this hand/flop one-on-one with someone sitting behind me who is going to pound away.

So it depends.... But in general, I'm definitely betting here. I'm interested in knowing why you think leading here is "bad." I don't know.... Maybe your opponents somehow play differently than mine.

Buzz

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

Check flop, lead turn (call as played)

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

Buzz: I'm surprised that you think hero is actually ahead on this flop. He has King high against 6 opponents---I highly doubt he is ahead here. I agree if he flopped a monster draw that he might actually be the favorite against the field, but all he has is a straight draw and a few of his outs are tainted. I'd take the free flop here if I could get it.

I also don't see how betting gives you any more information than if you elected to just check/call; it's not like you have a hand to speak of---you have a draw with no pair so it really wouldn't matter if you were called OR raised because someone might raise you with top 2...a set...or a nut flush draw. And, if you make your hand, it won't matter what the previous actions were because you'll know that your hand is good.

The only thing that I'd like about betting is that he might fold off better running low draws, but still, at this point, his hand is pretty rough from all angles, imo.

I do agree with some of the points that you addressed, and I also agree about the turn decisions, as well.

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

I agree with Buzz.

If you're not going to bet this flop, then you should not complete from the SB with it.

Re: another 10/20 LO8 hand
 

Why can't we complete from the sb AND check this flop? How does it make it wrong?

This is not a great flop for hero against 6 opponents, although I understand why some of the posters advocated a bet, but checking this flop can't be viewed as horrible/weak and it does not make completing from the sb an error.

There are a lot of hands that I will complete with (especially when there were a lot of limpers) but that decision does not mean that I need to make a C-bet just because I flopped a draw. Against a full field, drawing to straights on a 2-flushed board is not where I want to be too often and especially against opponents who don't fold.