20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

I am inexperienced at stud, having played mostly small stakes cash games and some tournaments on the Internet.

I have read 7CSFAP and the Chip Reese section in Super System, so I have some idea of correct strategy. But I have never put in enough hours to where it is second nature, like in hold 'em.

Waiting for 15-30 limit hold 'em at Bellagio, I decided to jump into the 20-40 stud game.

Hand in question:

2 brings it in, K raises, Q calls, I call with (AQ)A, bring-in calls. No other K, Q or A was out. Bring-in was a good player who I put on a 3-flush.

I didn't reraise because I was last, a raise wouldn't knock anyone out except maybe the bring-in, who would fold anyway if he had nothing, and it would give my hand away.

We all blank on fourth street (no suits), except the bring-in catches a suited 3. I check, 32 checks, Kx bets, Qx calls, I raise, 32 3-bets. Kx calls with little hesitation. Qx says "I don't think any of us can beat the raiser," and folds.

Blanks on 5th, I bet, both call. K catches another K on 6th, I want to vomit, but have picked up a diamond draw. Blank on river, I have to pay off for one bet, he has three kings.

Bring-in showed he had 6432 of spades on 4th.

Questions:
1. Should I have reraised on 3rd?

2. Playing it the way I did, should I have led out on 4th hoping to get raised, or was it right to go for the check-raise? Or should I have waited until 5th?

3. Was the bring-in right to 3-bet on 4th with his straight-flush draw? Or is it better to bring everyone in for an extra bet with way the best drawing hand?

4. Should the bring-in's 3-bet have knocked out the K? (i.e. Is a good player supposed to fold kings right there?)

Thanks for reading.

Fort Worth Jim

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

Waiting on 3rd is fine.

If I don't re-raise 3rd, I'm going to wait till 5th to see what develops.

But as the hand is played, you must call 6th.

I fold the river---what could the K have been playing and raising all this way and still have nothing?

Other than that, hand is fairly standard.

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

I would reraise 3rd. It is multiway and you want to narrow the field. With the high door card, the reraise is not certain to be aces, and when you raise 4th it looks like you have aces anyway.

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

I would still raise on third. It is true that you won't knock much of anyone out, but you'll still get more money in with the best hand. It is somewhat likely that you'll be out of position for most or all of this hand, so your opportunities to knock people out may be limited anyway.

The check-raise on fourth was fine. Betting out would have been fine. I think that waiting until fifth to pop it is more consistent with the smooth call on third.

I like the bet on fifth. There's a pretty good chance that the bring-in is on a draw. He's actually got the best hand, but you probably still have an edge equity-wise.

Sixth you have to call, but you can't like it. You basically threw away $40 on the river, though. I pay off more than anybody, but this guy raised with a King in the door and has played like he had split Kings the whole way. He is very, very likely to have trips. Maybe he only has a pocket pair. That beats you too. Even if he's on something else, he will river a second pair a large percentage of the time. Even if the stars align and you somehow have this guy beaten, the presumed big draw behind you will come in a decent percentage of the time. You have to hope that he missed too. You're asking for too much here.

On fourth, the bring-in should do whatever he can to get the most money into the pot. By flat-calling, he got three bets each out of two players and one out of a third. If he flat-called, presumably he would have gotten two bets each out of three players. Getting the Queen out was probably more bad than good, but I think the three-bet was a perfectly good play.

I probably would have folded the Kings to the three-bet.

Save the results for later. You can ask questions about how the other guys played their hands when you post the results.

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

1) Yes, reraise on third. If for no other reason than taking value with the best hand - but obviously you'd like to thin the field as much as possible. Getting rid of the Q and bringin would be very good.

2) The check-raise was the most correct option, in my opinion. Once the bringin 3bets you pretty much know what he has, but your hand still has some value. I would, however, not be in a hurry to inflate the pot any more unless I made aces up and no more spades or threes fell for the bringin.

3) Yes, I think the bringin was right to 3bet with his draw. I would. Knowing you both had big pairs and weren't going anywhere I'd have the foot on the accelerator at that point if I were him.

4) Yes, the K should have folded there, but many won't (that's why I'd 3bet as bringin). In fact, he should have thrown his cards at the dealer and gone screaming from the table. jk [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

100% reraise third...you don't want a multiway pot.

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

it's true your giving your hand away but they would be stupid to try and outdraw you....only fools fight the math in stud

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

3rd is close. Because its a multiway. But I probably raise here for 2 reasons.

-1. I put both the K and Q on big pairs. So I want to prevent any draw type hand from getting 5-1 or so to see 4th. If a draw hand hits good it completly kills my equity vs the field
-2. I'm in good shape against 2 smaller pairs. If the Q drops after paying of a raise thats fine by me.


4th, Your decision to raise here is very very bad. Espically considering your 3rd street deception.

-1. You said you put the BI on a 3flush -> 4 flush. Run a few simulation on twodimes.net. You'll quickly realize that if you are in a multiway pot when one player has a 4 flush there is very little to be gained from raising on 4th. The 4-flush wins so often that you will barely be far ahead of 25% to win. So you don't make (much, if any) money by raising.
-2. You give away your hand
-3. You bloat the pot so that calling down becomes very correct for your opponents.

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

[ QUOTE ]
but they would be stupid to try and outdraw you

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason calling is bad is because of the player with the 4 flush. Its fine to try to hit a 2 pair against a possible overpair. But if its a possible overpair AND likely 4flush...then your making a bad call.

Re: 20-40 stud hand at Bellagio
 

Questions:
1. Should I have reraised on 3rd?
My reason for raising 3rd is in case I hit a A on 4th. Unless someone catches real good the hand is over. This way you collect 2 or 3 more bets on 3rd where you would lose them by not raising.