What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

There are a few regulars at my tables that have stats like this 25/20/2.5.

How do I deal with them (changing table isn't much of an option as they play at more than one and only so and so many are available; changing seats isn't much of an option either, as seats usually are quite contested)? 3bet them with any of my LP-raising hands?

They have been among my best money donators, but frequently I feel lost when they raise and I get something like AJo /ATs against them.

And what about KQ, A3s, 9Ts? Should I basically view their raise as a limp, not worry too much about my implieds with 89s an cold call?

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

Three Bet them more often. They normally do not take well to aggression back to them. You need to isolate them and use position and strong holdings to punish them for being too loose.

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

Any offsuit holding (AJ, KQ etc.) is at an inherent disadvantage against a raiser (due to threat of domination), AK being the exception.
These hands are also weak in a multiway pot so you can pretty much throw them away every time unless you have a read that the LAG that raised before you will raise very light. Even then these hands may be difficult to play post flop.

The suited versions of these hands play a little better as they are strong HU and multiway. Again, i'd still be a little hesitant to cold call with them against a raise but if you know the LAG's you face will raise very light then i'd think about cold calling. The threat of domination with AJs, ATs, KJs, KTs still exists so tread carefully.

Thats my view on the hands. As for the plays with these hands against these villains you mention i'd be keen to hear what the more experienced posters have to say about them.

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any offsuit holding (AJ, KQ etc.) is at an inherent disadvantage against a raiser (due to threat of domination), AK being the exception.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm keen to 3-bet at MP and LP w/ AJ against 25/20/2.5 raiser.

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Three Bet them more often. They normally do not take well to aggression back to them. You need to isolate them and use position and strong holdings to punish them for being too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that much is clear, but what exactly is a strong holding here? I mean, I know this is a vague question but as you say - they don't like being played back at. So what usually happens is, I fold for half an hour about three times AJo agains them, and then, when they raise again, I 3-bet AK and they fold on the flop or latest the turn. So, I make something like 1.5BB on each of my monsters or so, but inbetween they steal all those slightly +EV situations that I would normally like to exploit (i.e. small pp, SCs etc.)

I've seen them raise with K8s, A3s, A6o, T8s, QJs, QTo, etc. (all after limpers), 3bet from the BB with J7o etc.

So, I think I should be a considerable fav. with AT+s/o against them if I use caution post flop. However, pajo nicely summarized the reasons why you should normally not start getting into a pissing contest here and why I often feel so uneasy...

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any offsuit holding (AJ, KQ etc.) is at an inherent disadvantage against a raiser (due to threat of domination), AK being the exception.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm keen to 3-bet at MP and LP w/ AJ against 25/20/2.5 raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here if the conditions warrant it, but we need to be aware of the threat of domination with this hand as making top pair top kicker on the flop facing a guy holding AQ/AK can get expensive.

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

You know, I was thinking of posting almost exactly the same question last night...

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, that much is clear, but what exactly is a strong holding here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was wondering. If you know someone is raising the top 20% of hands, how much stronger does your hand need to be to 3-bet? Top 10%? Top 5%?

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

some random ramblings without any specific hands.....

Generally trying to outlag the semi-lags with mediocre holdings isnt a great idea. These are the guys that cause me the most grief at the table because i never quite know where I am at with them. if I am going to fold I fold early in the hand. I want position on these guys. Getting HU with them is often good as getting sandwiched between a couple of these guys usually sucks. I usually dont bother trying to bluff them. I think it is okay to c/c these guys down if you have something decent or think they are FOS. Ace high sometimes wins against them but they usually arent total tards so choose your spots carefully. I don think that if they have position on you then lots of them are prone to try and bluff outright or semi bluff you especially if you check it too them. Letting them bet your reasonable hands for you and showing them a winning hand at SD can really piss them off. Check raising them with monsters is hella fun. these are just a few genreal thoughts I have...there will be exceptions. I need an ENTER key. found it

maybe it is a personal thing due to issues ive had htat have caused me to spew against these guys. It is usually the other players at the able who make it worth me staying at the table

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

The objective is not to out lag the lag. But if my preflop reraising standards are say AK, AQs, TT+ then I would open it up to (AK, AQs, AQ, AJs, KQs, 88+) if his stats are like that over a reasonable range. This is considered an UTG raiser with those stats.

Everybody spews against the over aggressive maniacs at times but mostly because more times than not it is correct to put that bet in on a ragged board with ace high. Or value raising with second pair on the river. Thing that sucks is somebody has to feed them to stick around and when you are running bad you are the bait used to lure him to stick around. And then most of the time somebody else gets the money from him.

Re: What to do with extremely aggro pre-floppers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I was thinking of posting almost exactly the same question last night...

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, that much is clear, but what exactly is a strong holding here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was wondering. If you know someone is raising the top 20% of hands, how much stronger does your hand need to be to 3-bet? Top 10%? Top 5%?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think of it in terms of %ages etc mainly cos I suck saying "the top 5% is hands xyz" and I dont have pokerstove fired up whilst playing. I do think however that at the table when i see my hud stats on villian and my cards that I can assess my hand against his range and make the right move. Maybe im being holistic about it but I think it depends on reads and your feel for the villian in question. It may also depend on what you feel comfortable playing against them and how well you play postflop AND how well they play postflop.

FWIW I requested that the compilator Loyalguard do a post on playing against LAGs (not laggy idiots but "thinking" lags) some time back and the end result was that he found this was a very difficult task and as such there is no such compilation. Loyalguard is "the man" when it comes to compilations so if he couldnt do it then I think thats a fair indication of the problems with playing against aggressive but maybe smart and not insane type of players...they put you to the test often.