Never raise pre-flop?
 

Hello everyone, as this is my first post here at 2+2.
I've been a reader for quite a while now and I thank you all for your lively discussions, questions, answers, theories, etc.
My question concerns raising pre-flop in low-limit, usually loose-passive, limit texas hold 'em games. I am a frequent B&M limit hold 'em player, and play recreationally anywhere from 3/6 to 9/18. Although I play recreationally, I do take the game seriously and am always trying to study the game, plug my leaks and improve my play.
There are two older gentlemen I play LHE with very frequently. I've probably played with each of them for more than 10,000 hands each. I've noticed they both play similarly and both play particularly well after the flop. Both of them hardly ever raise pre-flop. One of them only open-raises pre-flop with QQ, KK and AA, and will never re-raise, while the other will ONLY re-raise with AA (meaning, he will not open raise with AA; however, he will re-raise with AA pre-flop).
If you play particularly well post-flop, how much edge, if any, are you giving up by not open-raising at all pre-flop?
I am much closer to one of these older gentlemen than I am the other and I have talked poker with him quite a bit. His wife passed away, he lives near the casino, played poker all his life and enjoys the social atmosphere of the card room. He plays about 30-40 hours a week and says he makes about 1.2BB/hour, playing mainly 3/6, 4/8 and 6/12.
I understand the theoretical reasons for raising pre-flop, but how much does that matter in very loose, usually passive, limit hold 'em games?
Thank you very much.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

it matters hugely. in a loose game most players are giving money away every time they enter a hand with the trash they play. quality PF raises punish them by magnifying their error.

I estimate you're earning 1+ extra bb per pot on their bad PF coldcalls alone. that's an hour's earnings right there. SSHE goes into this quite a bit if you haven't already read it.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

If you have an equity edge PF, raise and people without an edge call your raise you are making money. Period.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

You gotta raise with crap every once in a while too. That way you'll get plenty of action from the loose regulars when you have premium hands.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You gotta raise with crap every once in a while too. That way you'll get plenty of action from the loose regulars when you have premium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. You can raise with KJs, KQs, JTs, low-medium pocket pairs in really-multi-way pots, etc. Most of the loose-regulars consider these hands crap (they'd play them, but would never raise) and don't realize that if there's enough people your raise is for value. This gets you the image and is +EV on the hand.

Of course some people call with anything. I was talking strategy to one guy at the table and after 4 or 5 hours he leans over and tells me I need to limp with my good hands because its obvious that I only raise with solid hands. I laugh, and tell him to watch what happens when I raise. Sure enough within a couple of orbits I get AA UTG + 1 raise, and I get 4 cold callers, 2 that called all the way to the river. As I show them at the end, I lean over and whisper "Why would I limp when they're going to call? These people don't care that I only play good hands, they just play their hand" He laughs.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

Not sure of an exact number, but it's VERY large. You have to push your edges wherever they are, and alot of those are preflop.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You gotta raise with crap every once in a while too. That way you'll get plenty of action from the loose regulars when you have premium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Most low limit B&M players are unlikely to think hard enough to justify raising with bad holdings in a situation that does not call for it. This is especially true since most will characterize you as "tight" or "loose" and not be very concerned about your limp % vs your raise %. In a loose, passive game you will be playing enough hands that it is doubtful that you will be seen as a rock.

2) Many players will have already entered in the pot when you raise, and many players will cold call your raise, much of the time even if nobody has entered in front of you. At this point, your image is irrelevant to getting "action," since anybody thoughtful enough to pay attention to your gambit will be getting insane pot odds on a call.

3) Your raising will probably already be relatively varied due to the nature of the game anyway.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Why would I limp when they're going to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

This the the single best reason to raise preflop. Most players at low limit won't notice that you only raise good hands, and 90% of those that do will think "Wow, he only raises big hands" and toss in a call with K9s anyway.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

I'd agree with the other posters - table image is rarely a factor at live games, and if it is only solid players will notice so you want them out of the pot anyway. Raise away with better hands and hope they hold up.

Re: Never raise pre-flop?
 

i play live at a local indian casino about 2 times a week and ive also noticed this same thing from many of the regular seniors who play there.many are very good players but will hardly ever raise preflop with strong hands, and never re-raise.it makes it difficult to know where you are when in a hand with them.they usually play from early morning till mid- afternoon, after that the games get much looser.now, i usually will wait and play later in the day, as the games get looser and more profitable.