A8s in the CO
 

Full Tilt

i open A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]in the CO, folds to an unknown bb who 3bets, i call.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

he bets, i raise, he calls.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he now donks, i call.

River: 5x

he bets, i raise.

why do i like this better than just raising the turn?

Re: A8s in the CO
 

You like it better because it's easier for villain to get away from AK/AQ on the turn (when he's looking at 2 more bets to showdown) than on the river (when it's only 1 more), though he's usually calling down from the turn anyway.

Re: A8s in the CO
 

Here's the thing though, you actually want them to fold on the turn if you raise.

AK and AQ have 6 outs to beat you and are getting 8-1 on a call, so they would be correct to call.

Re: A8s in the CO
 

[ QUOTE ]
AK and AQ have 6 outs to beat you and are getting 8-1 on a call, so they would be correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good argument. If it's 3-betted on the turn: cap, call down, or fold?

Re: A8s in the CO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK and AQ have 6 outs to beat you and are getting 8-1 on a call, so they would be correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good argument. If it's 3-betted on the turn: cap, call down, or fold?

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1)based on the flop action i don't really think we see AQ/AK too often here unless they are trying to b/3b the turn.
2)your question leads us to why i like this line.

Re: A8s in the CO
 

I usually raise the turn in this situation and call down a 3bet. Unless he has specifically AT or TT you are well enough ahead that a raise is a good play. You would think if he picked up the set or 2 pair he would probably c/r. However, if he does indeed have AQ or AK he's not getting away from it no matter what.

Re: A8s in the CO
 

If he 3-bet's the turn and he is sane, you are probably sunk. AA, AT, TT, 88 and 44 all beat you. I doubt he would re-raise with AK or AQ and I doubt he would re-raise pre-flop with T8 or A4.

You would have to call down, because he might be an idiot, but there is no way you should cap.

Re: A8s in the CO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK and AQ have 6 outs to beat you and are getting 8-1 on a call, so they would be correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good argument. If it's 3-betted on the turn: cap, call down, or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way you can fold this hand to a turn 3bet. Sure, AT might have just caught up, but he could have a slowplayed A4 just as easily. He might have a set, but he could just as likely be overplaying a hand like A9-AK. I call down to a turn 3-bet, but I think capping isn't terrible. It puts you in a bad spot if you get check-raised on the river, though.

I guess James' line minimizes the amount lost in this spot (you'll get 3-bet with AT or a set on the the turn) while keeping the amount won when ahead the same. The BB likely won't 3-bet AT on the river, and he might even just call with a set of fours.

Will you fold to a river 3-bet? I would call against an unknown.

Re: A8s in the CO
 

I can't say that I usually wait for the river to raise in this spot James. But I think it has some merit in this situation.

If you think villain is bet/folding the turn with something like KK/QQ/JJ then we will collect 1-2 more BBs out of him by waiting until the river to raise. Judging by his PFR from the BB and then flop/turn play, an underpair that doesn't believe you seems pretty likely. I think it is a very goofy way to play a big ace and would put little weight in him having one. I like waiting for the river; even if villain checks the river to us (planning on calling), we still gain an extra BB if he was planning on bet/folding the turn.

Haupt_234

Re: A8s in the CO
 

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why do i like this better than just raising the turn?

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I assume because you think he's more likely to fold to a turn raise than a river raise if he's got a worse hand, and because he's less likely to 3bet the river with a better hand.

Against most unknowns, it really doesn't matter. Unless, of course, he would have 3bet the turn with AK.