Origin of Life and Evolution
 

Granting the scientific definition of evolution, that it is simply a process of survivial with no goal or objective, can we factor out the physical elements that make up the various forms of life and conclude that - the primary attribute of life is survivial?

If the above definition of life holds true, wouldn't it follow that in order to have a will(?) to survive, an entity must first have some sense of identity or self?

Wouldn't we have to find an element of 'beingness' that is not found in non-organic matter? Which simply adheres to natural laws and gives no evidence of a will to survive.

Main question: Is some form of identity, beingness, self-awareness, etc... a prerequisite for the will to survive?

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

Getting out of a gravity well might take that specific trigger point in evolution, the ability to individualize and form a cohesive group plan to take to the stars.

Perhaps not. But the evidence would seem to indicate that it does. In a biosphere, you're simply not going to evolve the ability to breathe oxygen in a vacuum 'cause there is no vacuum on Earth.

Just Hoovers and lovers.

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

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Main question: Is some form of identity, beingness, self-awareness, etc... a prerequisite for the will to survive?

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Perhaps we need to confirm there is a will to survive because we delve into the prerequisites. It can't be anything major because so many life forms take actions that are contrary to it.

luckyme

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

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Wouldn't we have to find an element of 'beingness' that is not found in non-organic matter? Which simply adheres to natural laws and gives no evidence of a will to survive.

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That element could well arise from complicated arrangements of non-organic matter. The concepts of solid, liquid, gas is meaningless at the quantum level - only by considering lots of particles together do the bigger concepts emerge. This element may well be the same, something which emerges from suitably constituted arrangements of physical building blocks.

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

There is no need for a will to survive for something to survive. It just has to not die.

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

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There is no need for a will to survive for something to survive. It just has to not die.

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I duck when they swing the bat at my head, not from any will to survive, but because if my ancestors didn't duck I wouldn't be typing this. No will to survive seems necessary, other than as a holder for the overall result of much ducking and dodging.

One celled creatures may avoid dangers, but I'm not willing to grant them sense of self, anymore than I'm willing to grant water a sense of downhill.

luckyme

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

Sometimes I don't bother to duck. Sure, it hurts, but it's sheer pride to be able to stand there and say, "What, [censored]?"

Nine or so concussions later, I probably get the point. I hope.

As for water, give it a long enough span of time, it'll disintegrate any rock.

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

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Wouldn't we have to find an element of 'beingness' that is not found in non-organic matter? Which simply adheres to natural laws and gives no evidence of a will to survive.

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That element could well arise from complicated arrangements of non-organic matter. The concepts of solid, liquid, gas is meaningless at the quantum level - only by considering lots of particles together do the bigger concepts emerge. This element may well be the same, something which emerges from suitably constituted arrangements of physical building blocks.

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So whether it was a certain arrangement or we found some missing catalyst, would it be too much of a leap to conclude that something akin to our own feeling of consciousness or awareness of being resulted from this?

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

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So whether it was a certain arrangement or we found some missing catalyst, would it be too much of a leap to conclude that something akin to our own feeling of consciousness or awareness of being resulted from this?

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It's not a huge leap, but it doesn't follow from your assumptions. It's an interesting speculation, but you haven't provided any evidence for it.

Re: Origin of Life and Evolution
 

OK, I realize that "will to survive" and "sense of self" are subjective terms that cannot be verified, so if I rephrased the statements to say: all forms of life act as if they had a will to survive or act as if they had a sense of self, would that hold up?

Considering factors like metabolism and reproduction, is it safe to say that certain combinations of base elements act as if they have an identity and will?

So taking into consideration my original question,

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Main question: Is some form of identity, beingness, self-awareness, etc... a prerequisite for the will to survive?

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Wouldn't the creation/generation of an RNA or DNA strand, in essence, be the creation/generation of identity?