Beyond ABC
 

I posted this here because I wanted to get the perspective of upper-limit/seasoned players.

I was pondering ABC poker versus advanced poker (or out of the box poker). I've heard it said that ABC poker will only get you so far. To be a really good player you have to go beyond it. But is it good to think these terms: You must first have an excellent grasp of ABC poker as a foundation before trying to lay more advanced poker skills on top of it? In other words, you must know what the box is before you can think outside it (copyrighted by me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Those of you who are advanced players, did you begin with ABC poker and then learn to think on higher levels?

Let me tap your knowledge,

Thanks

Re: Beyond ABC
 

mike,

ABC poker is for chumps. Skip that nonsense and start playing real poker.

Re: Beyond ABC
 

OK. But am I correct in thinking that those like you who play a more advanced poker still have a solid understanding of ABC poker and started by learning it?

I've read all the major books, and I think they have been helpful. But now I see that maybe the most important ability I need is person/hand/situation reading, something that no book can teach. I'm just trying to learn here man, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Beyond ABC
 

ABC poker makes the money.

The only time you will need to be playing "advanced" poker is when you are playing against other players who are also playing outside the box.

From my experiences you will not need to start using "advanced" play until you start playing 25/50 NL and higher.

10/20 NL and below is all ABC, and it will get you the money.

"Advanced" play is loosely defined.

Hell, I think I am always playing advanced strategy.

Re: Beyond ABC
 

You can beat the higher limits (all the way to 5-10, even 10-20) playing fairly ABC. Properly applied "out of the box" poker, as you say, though, can increase your winrate significantly.

Re: Beyond ABC
 

Hi mike,

Here's my opinion which is quite possibly wrong.

If you choose good games, and play full ring or close to it, then "ABC" poker will probably win at pretty much every level (certainly 25/50 NL online and below), as long as by "ABC", you don't mean, "Never bluff and play very predictably in general". In games not filled with donks, ABC poker still means sometimes limping, sometimes raising when opening a pot with JTs, AA, and whatever. It means sometimes semi-bluffing/raising for a free card, sometimes not. I could go on and on, but what I'm saying here is that "ABC" at this level means trying to avoid big mistakes, while relying on others to make big unforced errors (as players in very good games will).

"Advanced" play in my mind is actively leading your opponents into mistakes (and countering other advanced players' attempts to do the same to you), by observing their tendencies and then setting them up with plays that are usually sub-optimal in the immediate sense, though not in the global sense if they succeed in forcing big mistakes down the road.

If you want to win in tough games, or even in average shorthanded games, you can't play ABC, IMO.

Re: Beyond ABC
 

This is a great response. The only thing I would add to it, if it was in any way unclear, is by playing advanced poker you have to sit. Experience is always the best teacher.