KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

Hi-

First hand at this 6max table (5/10)

I get K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in BB
Folded to button who opens.
SB folds and I call.

Flop (4sb) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, Btn bets, I check-raise, Btn 3-bets. I call.

Turn (5bb) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, Btn bets, I check-raise, Btn 3-bets. I ...

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

call down and either pwn his AA or get pwned by his A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or maybe QJ.. oh well.. try to river a K and c/r again if you do.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

Looks standard to me. I think I call down UI now because I'm unimaginative. Also with no reads I'm not giving villain credit for a flush or trips yet.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

Why not wait till the turn to raise? Then, if 3bet, probably call down.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

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Why not wait till the turn to raise? Then, if 3bet, probably call down.

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Because

some turn cards we will not want to raise
some turn cards villian will check through
some turn cards villian will bet with a better hand, and the rest of the time he'll typically fold to the raise

The only time we're really happy with a turn c/r is if its a blank like a 3 AND villian has some hand like QTs that will showdown. The rest of the time, he's either folding or 3balling, and the times we get 3bet are a disaster.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

Gawd I'm rubbish at this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

But... how many cards are we really scared of? A/Q/J maybe. It's unlikely he has a heart, and if one fell we'd have to decide if we raise or not. Most of the cards that fall will be 'safe' and we can still improve.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

Right, lots of turn cards are safe. But that means they aren't cards that improve villian, so he's more likely than usual to just check through, letting him get a free look at the river and losing tons of value for us. Sometimes he'll bet/fold hands like Ax or K8 or something that didn't improve, so those times we gain .5BBs over a flop c/r line.

But when you combine the times he checks through with the times he 3bets a better hand, I think overall waiting to c/r the turn is worse than just doing it on the flop. I reserve your line for the times I'm in position much more than OOP. Its just too hard to screw around when you're first to act.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

I hope im not letting the results of your hand influence me but I think I like donking that turn alot better than checkraising....why is this so? Well when most players 3bet a flop checkraise on this board, I think the probability of them having a draw goes up significantly. Many players with a set or two pair or better would simply call the flop checkraise and pop the turn knowing you will bet no matter what card comes out. Given this dynamic, and the reality that the worst card in the deck hit if your opponent was on a draw, I would rather bet/call the turn. By playing your hand this way you still avoid giving your opponent a free card if he has a hand like J8 or 87 or some other gutshot that missed, and you never get 3bet, and your donk may still induce him to raise with a worse hand, and lastly sometimes a checkraise here will fold out a lesser hand like Tx or JJ/QQ whereas if you donk, these hands will almost always call down. So in this specific spot, I like donking the turn.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

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I hope im not letting the results of your hand influence me but I think I like donking that turn alot better than checkraising....why is this so? Well when most players 3bet a flop checkraise on this board, I think the probability of them having a draw goes up significantly. Many players with a set or two pair or better would simply call the flop checkraise and pop the turn knowing you will bet no matter what card comes out. Given this dynamic, and the reality that the worst card in the deck hit if your opponent was on a draw, I would rather bet/call the turn. By playing your hand this way you still avoid giving your opponent a free card if he has a hand like J8 or 87 or some other gutshot that missed, and you never get 3bet, and your donk may still induce him to raise with a worse hand, and lastly sometimes a checkraise here will fold out a lesser hand like Tx or JJ/QQ whereas if you donk, these hands will almost always call down. So in this specific spot, I like donking the turn.

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good points, thanks.

Re: KTo fancy, standard, or suck?
 

You's smart.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope im not letting the results of your hand influence me but I think I like donking that turn alot better than checkraising....why is this so? Well when most players 3bet a flop checkraise on this board, I think the probability of them having a draw goes up significantly. Many players with a set or two pair or better would simply call the flop checkraise and pop the turn knowing you will bet no matter what card comes out. Given this dynamic, and the reality that the worst card in the deck hit if your opponent was on a draw, I would rather bet/call the turn. By playing your hand this way you still avoid giving your opponent a free card if he has a hand like J8 or 87 or some other gutshot that missed, and you never get 3bet, and your donk may still induce him to raise with a worse hand, and lastly sometimes a checkraise here will fold out a lesser hand like Tx or JJ/QQ whereas if you donk, these hands will almost always call down. So in this specific spot, I like donking the turn.

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