U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

Good NL game with a $5 BB somewhere in LA a while back. The button is in seat 1 in this 9-handed game. Before the flop Seat 4 folds, Seat 5 and Seat 6 limp, I limp in Seat 7 followed by Seat 8 and 9. The button now spoils the limping party by raising to $35. The SB and BB fold along with Seat 5. Seat 6 releases several chips and appears to have called so I fold my one chip trash.

The action is now on Seat 8 and he suddenly says, ”What was that?” He’s looking at Seat 6 so I look and observe he is without cards and there is only one chip in the pot where his bets are. Seat 8 asks me “Didn’t he call the raise?” and I simply respond, “I thought so.”

Now the action is stalled and Seat 8 doesn’t know what to do. He asks me what the rule is more or less and I tell him I’m out of the hand now and it’s up to him whether or not he wants a ruling. So he calls the floor for a ruling.

The floor eventually determines that Seat 6 originally limped, then released four more chips to call what he thought was a $20 raise to $25, then took the chips back and bullet mucked when he saw the raise was to $35. My fold came immediately after the initial release of chips but before the “take back and muck”.

What is your decision?

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

Tell 6 to pay attention and he won't find himself causing floor calls. Tell 8 to hurry up and call or fold, we'd like to see another hand sometime tonight.

You folded not to 6's call, but 1's raise. 8 and 9 haven't acted. The retracted call isn't especially cool, but it's a stretch to say it's caused any action behind him, so I don't really see holding him to a call.

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

To call the raise, he needed to put in $30. He put in $20. Not like $300 and he put in $20. It is close enough that I wouldn't let him use the "I didn't know the size of the raise" excuse.
There was action behind him (whether your fold was due to the initial raise or his call is not material...think of the "burn and turn too soon" situation where the player who didn't call the last bet folds anyway). Even if there wasn't, can a player say "call", put in the chips, and then take them out? The "Emily Litella Rule"?
So I think he owes the pot. Question is, the $20 he put in, or the $30 to call the raise? I would have him put in the $20.

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

if u folded before he took back, the chips stay. since seat 6's cards are gone those 20 are in the pot. Expensive lesson learned.. if he's a complete noob, I might let him take the bet back with a warning but if this isnt the guys first day at the rodeo... chips stay...

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

Somebody needs to wake up the dealer too.

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody needs to wake up the dealer too.

[/ QUOTE ]

In what way?

Everything happened very fast. She couldn't immediately see that only five chips total went into the pot. Eventually she of course would have had it corrected; things like this happen all the time. The bullet muck couldn't be stopped except maybe by Superman.

The LA games are also played very loose. A dealer will generally leave it up to the players as to whether or not to call the floor in this sort of situation.

~ Rick

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

Depends on casino - some have a haRd and fast rule about "the line" - That is, any chip that crosses the betting line is part of the pot, period, unless a verbal declaration states the about of a bet or raise.

Others are based on "action behind". In this case, it would appear that either rule would apply to force the player to leave the chips in the pot, though if the "line" is not a specific rule, I think it would be the players that would have to object here though - but if the players object, I believe the money has to stay in the pot.


AB

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it would be the players that would have to object here though - but if the players object, I believe the money has to stay in the pot. - AB

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, a lot has to do with the players reactions in this sort of case. I also believe a floor might and perhaps should rule it differently in the same cardroom depending on the size of game.

~ Rick

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

out of curiosity, where was this and what was the ruling?

AB

Re: U Make the Call: “What Was That?”
 

Seat 6 puts his additional 4 redbirds in the pot, Seat 8 now can CRF and so on.