Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

I'm not sure if people are encouraged to suggest topics for potential magazine articles. But I would be very interested in reading an article on the prevalence of bots in online games. The recent discovery of probable winning bots playing 1-2NL at Full Tilt has me quite concerned for the future of online poker. Mainly because of the callous way that Full Tilt has treated this problem.

I would be primarily interested in reading suggestions for how sites and players could police and crackdown on bots. Maybe the poker sites would even be interested in reading the suggestions if someone did a good job of writing the article.

Anyways, I'm just throwing this idea out there in case someone has the desire and expertise to research and write about it. Of course I wouldn't want anything to be published which would primarily help bots escape detection, so there's a double edged sword with this topic.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

Detection isn't really the issue, or at least not the interesting one. Bots will always exist and be undetectable. The question, for me, is whether their evolution will kill online poker or not. Put differently: as more bots appear, will their most profitable strategy converge to an Ankenman-ish unexploitable one, or will they be constantly cutting each other's throats (leaving their own throats exposed), or some function fluctuating between those?

Now that's interesting.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

Or poker rooms could simply expose an API for anyone interested and have bot only tables. Herd them onto the same tables so to speak, and let others play against them if they wished.

This obviously could encourage more rapid evolution, but at least they'd be out in the open for us to observe and we'd have a list of users creating them.

The real risk is when someone commercializes a strong bot.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

[ QUOTE ]
Detection isn't really the issue, or at least not the interesting one. Bots will always exist and be undetectable. The question, for me, is whether their evolution will kill online poker or not. Put differently: as more bots appear, will their most profitable strategy converge to an Ankenman-ish unexploitable one, or will they be constantly cutting each other's throats (leaving their own throats exposed), or some function fluctuating between those?

Now that's interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, you're right that there are probably more interesting articles to be written on the subject of bots than just detection. Anyways, I think that this subject would be of interest to readers of the magazine as evidenced by how many replies that thread on FT bots received.

I think that I will try to find some articles on bots on the internet either way. It would be nice to know what we're up against. I think this is the second biggest concern to the future of online gaming, with changing regulations being the first concern.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

I'm not worried about someone writing a bot and running it in the attempts to make money. What does worry me is a poker site writing its own in-house bots and running them on their own server in cash games.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

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I'm not worried about someone writing a bot and running it in the attempts to make money. What does worry me is a poker site writing its own in-house bots and running them on their own server in cash games.

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This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Why would a poker site do this? Maybe a small poker site. But there is no reason a major site like Stars, FTP, or Party would want to do this. It's simple risk reward. Right now major sites make millions of dollars. Millions! Think about how many hands are player per hour on a major site. Add up the rake and tournament buy-in fees. The major poker sites are making more money than they ever dreamed of. What would happen to that money if they got caught using a bot? No one would play there. They would lose all their business. And for what? A few more BBs/hour using a bot? LOL. There is absolutely no logical reason for a major poker site using a bot.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

Good point.. similar to the poker sites fix cards to reward aggressive players and increase the rake rubbish.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not worried about someone writing a bot and running it in the attempts to make money. What does worry me is a poker site writing its own in-house bots and running them on their own server in cash games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Why would a poker site do this? Maybe a small poker site. But there is no reason a major site like Stars, FTP, or Party would want to do this. It's simple risk reward. Right now major sites make millions of dollars. Millions! Think about how many hands are player per hour on a major site. Add up the rake and tournament buy-in fees. The major poker sites are making more money than they ever dreamed of. What would happen to that money if they got caught using a bot? No one would play there. They would lose all their business. And for what? A few more BBs/hour using a bot? LOL. There is absolutely no logical reason for a major poker site using a bot.

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I think this "what would they have to gain" argument is nonsense. I will make it very simple. Why make $X in a fair game when you can rig it and make 2*$X.

That's like saying, "why would anyone ever cheat at poker? If the games are always good, why cheat? Simple risk V reward. You have too much to lose by getting caught and kicked out of the game. Just play fair and play better."

But yet poker players cheat? Huge multinational corporations that make tons of legitimate profits still cook their books and choose to engage in unscrupulous business practices in order to make more money. Why?

Because two dollars are always better than one. Do not underestimate greed.

In summary, I'm not saying that sites are/aren't could/couldn't run house bots, w/e. But if you think they aren't because they have "too much to lose", then you're very naive.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not worried about someone writing a bot and running it in the attempts to make money. What does worry me is a poker site writing its own in-house bots and running them on their own server in cash games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Why would a poker site do this? Maybe a small poker site. But there is no reason a major site like Stars, FTP, or Party would want to do this. It's simple risk reward. Right now major sites make millions of dollars. Millions! Think about how many hands are player per hour on a major site. Add up the rake and tournament buy-in fees. The major poker sites are making more money than they ever dreamed of. What would happen to that money if they got caught using a bot? No one would play there. They would lose all their business. And for what? A few more BBs/hour using a bot? LOL. There is absolutely no logical reason for a major poker site using a bot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this "what would they have to gain" argument is nonsense. I will make it very simple. Why make $X in a fair game when you can rig it and make 2*$X.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because rigging it to make 2*$X would be long term costly as I have already indicated. I assume the operators of poker sites think logically (this assumption could be completely wrong, but something about PokerStars management and support team tells me it isn't).

Anyhow, take your example to the extreme. Why do casinos payout money at gaming tables and slot machines? I mean, they could make more money according to your theory if they just "rigged" the games to win every hand/pull. So why don't they? Because it is long term -$EV.

Why would live casinos cheat customers any further? It would simply be too costly if they got caught. I don't doubt that some greedy and ignorant owners will/have attempted to do so. But when they get/got caught, the cost will be/is tremendous. So long as owners/managers have 1/2 a clue, poker websites will not run online bots. Anyone who thinks they will doesn't understand EV or doesn't believe online casino owner/managers do.

Re: Article Request: Analysis of Bots
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Detection isn't really the issue, or at least not the interesting one. Bots will always exist and be undetectable. The question, for me, is whether their evolution will kill online poker or not. Put differently: as more bots appear, will their most profitable strategy converge to an Ankenman-ish unexploitable one, or will they be constantly cutting each other's throats (leaving their own throats exposed), or some function fluctuating between those?

Now that's interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, you're right that there are probably more interesting articles to be written on the subject of bots than just detection. Anyways, I think that this subject would be of interest to readers of the magazine as evidenced by how many replies that thread on FT bots received.

I think that I will try to find some articles on bots on the internet either way. It would be nice to know what we're up against. I think this is the second biggest concern to the future of online gaming, with changing regulations being the first concern.

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Any chance of a link to that thread? I can't find it.