Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

Table deals out human factor

Technology could boost profits, but labor situation makes big casinos wary

By Liz Benston
Las Vegas Sun

BY THE NUMBERS

25 hands: Can be dealt per hour by most human dealers.

40 hands: Dealt per hour by the PokerPro table.

60 percent: Potential increase in revenue if casinos switch to the automated tables.

Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.

Televised tournaments and pop culture references have made poker a player favorite, but the games, in which players bet against one another, don't make much money for the house.

A startup company from North Carolina is trying to change that with electronic poker tables called PokerPros that don't require live dealers. These tables, which debuted in 2005 but aren't yet offered in Nevada, have big implications for the casino industry.

Because electronic tables play faster than traditional games, they can increase what the casino takes from the pot over time, yielding a profit that more resembles that of other, more lucrative table games. They save labor costs by replacing dealers with a computer that deals electronic cards to players on a flat screen much like Internet poker games. And these games don't require shuffling machines and aren't subject to human error.

Surprisingly, the tables - developed with input from poker pro and casino executive Lyle Berman - have been a hard sell for Nevada's profit-driven casinos.

That's because the table's advantages come at an uncomfortable time for Strip casinos. Empowered by a controversial tip-sharing policy at Wynn Las Vegas, dealers at other properties are organizing under the Transport Workers Union, or at least exploring that prospect.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...566660812.html

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

Not surprising to see a bad article.

[ QUOTE ]
"That people like to touch cards and interact with a dealer seems like a common sense assertion," said [PokerTek CEO] Halligan, who speaks rapidly, with the assertiveness of a young entrepreneur. "But it's false."

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? The manufacturer claims people have no problem. I guess they don't. He must be right. No self interest there.

The statement is just left out there, as if it were undeniable.

No attempt to even contact someone from Cardplayer, Bluff, 2+2, etc.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

This ain't gonna happen in AC. At least not until they make it legal to pump your own gas.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

I for one would never regularly play these electronic casino poker games unless they were the only game offered within a 50 mile radius of my house.
I like live poker with cards and chips and that is what I want when I play live poker.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

PokerTek is clearly an unbiased source of information regarding electronic poker tables and I'm glad their CEO at least knows what they do as a business.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I for one would never regularly play these electronic casino poker games unless they were the only game offered within a 50 mile radius of my house.
I like live poker with cards and chips and that is what I want when I play live poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Not only that, casinos are regulated in NJ so that there is an increase in employment. My opinion is that state government of NJ will never allow the dealers to be replaced by machines.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

They should market these tables solely for headsup and shorthanded play, which can't be done cost effectively with dealers. That's a hole in live casino play they could fill.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

All casino games aspire to the condition of slot machines.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

Wow. That reporter certainly makes herself look stupid and/or like a shill for the electronic poker table manufacturer...

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

I just want to know how much pokerpro paid liz to place this advertisement in the sun. It's not even an article, it's just a bunch of selling points for pokerpro.

Way to push casinos to jack up the rake even more. Somebody knows that if the rake were high enough, say like 20% to $500, no one would ever be able to beat poker and the casino would get all the money. That's the underlying problem with these disneyland corporations, they want ALL their customers money. They're not satisfied with a tidy profit, they want ridiculously enourmous profits.

It's not enough they have always made a killing at blackjack. Now they only pay 6/5 on half the games in town. Dealers hit soft 17. Any and all minute edges towards what was still "advantage: house" are being taken away. Soon blackjack will just be a booth where you write a check to parball corporation, LLC. They probably won't even provide a dank alley for you to die in without charging you.


The highest people in these corporations, the ones making six, seven, or perhaps eight figures, will do absolutely anything to keep their jobs. Their only concern is profits and dividends, and of course themselves. The employees keep getting the shaft worse and worse all the time. Poker dealers make barely above minimum wage, yet the casino execs want to cut labor costs even more. When the workforce unionizes, these companies will get what they deserve. Unions don't form when everyone is getting a fair shake and being treated well. They form when everyone's being treated like **** and treated badly.

Casinos are no longer a place where customers can enjoy themselves for a fair price. Not a place where workers can hold a good, secure job. Not a place for anyone anymore except casino execs and stockholders. And they say vegas was run by crooks when the mob was in town.

I know a fair number of people want poker to go away. These people are experts at one thing: fooling themselves. It aint going away. Casinos will try to bring in electronic tables, but the day when all poker is ala internet are not close.

The choice will remain to accept and embrace poker, or to keep fooling yourselves. Choose to do it right, or keep on doing it the harrahs way. Either way, poker is here to stay.

Al

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

whats the deal with just posting news reports all the time pokerpaired? whats your point of view on all these news articles you post?

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

It's pretty much a standard corporate attitude to be absolutely focused on maximizing income - and the time periods measured have gone from multi-year to month-to-month (and less).

This means squeeze every penny *now* out of each customer. Instead of building the long-term relationship and taking significantly more over decades (even if you NPV-adjust, this is probably true).

I personally am not a big fan of the corporate attitude - I got trained to think that way in school, but thank god I didn't go that route...I knew it wasn't for me. I still wish I had Al's eloquence for expressing it.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody knows that if the rake were high enough, say like 20% to $500, no one would ever be able to beat poker and the casino would get all the money. That's the underlying problem with these disneyland corporations, they want ALL their customers money. They're not satisfied with a tidy profit, they want ridiculously enourmous profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

MGM

Harrah's

Sands

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Somebody knows that if the rake were high enough, say like 20% to $500, no one would ever be able to beat poker and the casino would get all the money. That's the underlying problem with these disneyland corporations, they want ALL their customers money. They're not satisfied with a tidy profit, they want ridiculously enourmous profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

MGM

Harrah's

Sands

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice work, remember those numbers are in thousands, so ya gotta add three zeros at the end. Those net income figures are in hundreds of millions.Bugsy Seigel and Meyer Lansky would be proud.

nineinchal, CPA

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not surprising to see a bad article.

[ QUOTE ]
"That people like to touch cards and interact with a dealer seems like a common sense assertion," said [PokerTek CEO] Halligan, who speaks rapidly, with the assertiveness of a young entrepreneur. "But it's false."

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? The manufacturer claims people have no problem. I guess they don't. He must be right. No self interest there.

The statement is just left out there, as if it were undeniable.

No attempt to even contact someone from Cardplayer, Bluff, 2+2, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the statement was made as if it were pure fact, which of course it's not. Bullpucky is closer to fact than this ridiculousness.

However, I wouldn't bother going to bluff or cardplayer if facts are what you seek. I tend to promote these publications as useful when your birdcage needs new liner. I'm starting to rethink that however, as it seems quite cruel to the birds.

Al

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to promote these publications as useful when your birdcage needs new liner.

[/ QUOTE ] http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...yle/tweety.gif

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I for one would never regularly play these electronic casino poker games unless they were the only game offered within a 50 mile radius of my house.
I like live poker with cards and chips and that is what I want when I play live poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I play multiple machines in my underwear while watching pr0n on the extra screen? If not I fail to see any advantages over my current electronic poker setup.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

I saw two of these tables at Commerce, but nobody was playing on them while there were many other tables going. I would think at Commerce with the grinders, these would be a hit due to the increased speed. I think that they are too intimidating to the casual player.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

Speaking at last week's Global Gaming Expo, the industry's premier trade show, Bellagio poker room director Doug Dalton called the games "the next future of poker."

Good to know card room managers have mastered the subtleties of logic in grammar.

Why is this debate only happening at poker? Wouldn't electronic craps and bj games also be faster and less error prone etc. resulting in more hands per hour hour and more money for the house?

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
whats the deal with just posting news reports all the time pokerpaired? whats your point of view on all these news articles you post?

[/ QUOTE ]

he’s graduated from a sandwich board proclaiming world doom

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's the underlying problem with these disneyland corporations, they want ALL their customers money. They're not satisfied with a tidy profit, they want ridiculously enourmous profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose you prefer the days when Vegas was barely a rest stop on the way to LA? Do you think Steve Wynn & Co. invested $630 million in the Mirage so he could keep dropping $3/hand in rake? Personally, I prefer the grandeur that is today's Vegas, and so do (#_of_2007_Vegas_tourists - #_of_1988_Vegas_tourists) other people. What do you think built these ridiculously luxurious mega-resorts if not ridiculously enormous profits / the anticipation of ridiculously enormous profits?

[ QUOTE ]
It's not enough they have always made a killing at blackjack. Now they only pay 6/5 on half the games in town. Dealers hit soft 17. Any and all minute edges towards what was still "advantage: house" are being taken away. Soon blackjack will just be a booth where you write a check to parball corporation, LLC. They probably won't even provide a dank alley for you to die in without charging you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't play. Or go to dingy old downtown where they still spread a decent game. I stopped doing that myself when I started making some decent money and decided I'd rather treat myself to a good time when I went to Vegas, rather than couting cards at the Four Queens even though the odds are better there.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

On the rare occasion I do play blackjack in this town, it is always downtown at the plaza or four queens. I was born during the day, but not yesterday.

And I don't begrudge businesses making a profit, not at all. I do begrudge businesses who screw both their customers and employees alike, motivated only by profits. These companies have forgotten that you can shear a sheep many times, but skin them only once.

There are businesses that both provide a product or service at a fair price, and make a very nice profit at the same time. Sometimes they even treat their employees very well. I do preferentially patronize these places whenever I can. The lucky lady in san diego is just such a place, which is why I played about 95% of my san diego poker there. Stan, kudos to you for running a great room and taking care of your customers.

Those days may be numbered, but that doesn't make it right. I'm sure walmart and harrahs would prefer that stan die in a gutter, but they're probably trying to figure out how to get a buck out of his dead carcus.

Corporate america is scum, plain and simple. The mega resorts could do much better in the long run by taking care of people now, even if that means slightly less profits today. They won't go broke, nor will their stockholders fail to collect their dividends. But for the most part, it seems they were born at night, last night.

Al

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

I don't understand about these new-fangled poker things. Are they like the poker machines in bar tops? Or, do several people play at them at one time? Does it mean that there are no longer cards and chips to handle? I'm not a great player, but I don't think I'd continue playing in such a soulless environment.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Corporate america is scum, plain and simple. The mega resorts could do much better in the long run by taking care of people now, even if that means slightly less profits today.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were the case, then why hasn't the dominant model (as you describe it) been challenged?

If capitalism (when allowed to function) has proven anything it's that when there's a more efficient/better way of doing something, it will be discovered and implemented.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand about these new-fangled poker things. Are they like the poker machines in bar tops? Or, do several people play at them at one time? Does it mean that there are no longer cards and chips to handle? I'm not a great player, but I don't think I'd continue playing in such a soulless environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, its basically a table with a central scree displaying the flop and players stack and each player has a screen with hole cards and options (check bet fold ...).

You need to put your hand on the screen to reveal the card, otherwise they are face down.

I played it once and really didnt enjoy. It was a 50+15$SNG and the stucture was crappy.

But I think it could work for :

-SNG (but with the structure and fee of online rooms)
-HU

These 2 things needs to be develloped in BM casinos and for low stakes it could be pretty good.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I don't begrudge businesses making a profit, not at all. I do begrudge businesses who screw both their customers and employees alike, motivated only by profits. These companies have forgotten that you can shear a sheep many times, but skin them only once.

Corporate america is scum, plain and simple. The mega resorts could do much better in the long run by taking care of people now, even if that means slightly less profits today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that would be very convenient for you, if it were true; they'd make more money by doing what you want them to do. But where are your arguments in support of that bold contention? If you ask me, I think the best strategy is to take all their money as fast as you can (cost of *ahem* goods sold is lower that way) and then tell them you'll give them a free room & other bonuses next time they drop by -- exactly what they're trying to do now, incidentally. But what do I know. Maybe you're dead on about maximizing long term profits and this guy could learn a thing or two about the casino business by reading this thread.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I for one would never regularly play these electronic casino poker games unless they were the only game offered within a 50 mile radius of my house.
I like live poker with cards and chips and that is what I want when I play live poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Not only that, casinos are regulated in NJ so that there is an increase in employment. My opinion is that state government of NJ will never allow the dealers to be replaced by machines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokertek machines were already approved by the NJCC.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

But there will still be a place for dealers.

Halligan says casinos could charge a higher fee for the option of a live dealer similar to banks that have charged customers for using tellers instead of automated services such as ATMs


When you read the last line of the article it's pretty much in the hands of the casinos. When I first remember ATM's like 20 years ago,some people refused to deal with them and conitnued using the tellers. Since then the banks have slowly adjusted the mindest of the vast majority of the public. Now, pretty much all ATM's charge fees if your not a member of their bank, some banks even charge you if you withdrawal your money from another banks ATM, therefore getting double charged. (even at non fee ATM's my Bank Charges me).
Try having a paper check mailed to your home from your employer, instead of Direct Deposit, you run into roadblocks, such as banks charging you fees to have an account UNLESS you have direct deposit. With the younger workforce comfortable with ATMS and Direct Deposits and virtually no experience with bank tellers, it's completely in the Banks favor.
Now the casinos will do the same thing, those that really like the dealers and real chips will either have to adjust or be forced into to paying more for the dealer. Now, at first there will be alot of real dealer poker players, but slowly, they will decline until the vast majority of players will be playing these PokerTek like tables.
And the thing is, there isn't going to be any real reason for playing with a real dealer, players will soon realize that no tips and more hands per hour = more money. And to tell you the truth younger, more naive players may be quicker to try the electronic tables as they don;t have to 'interact' with a real person, since they are ATM and Direct Deposit comfortable.
This is just my opinion of how it may work out and for one enjoy real dealers and real chips.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Try having a paper check mailed to your home from your employer, instead of Direct Deposit, you run into roadblocks, such as banks charging you fees to have an account UNLESS you have direct deposit. With the younger workforce comfortable with ATMS and Direct Deposits and virtually no experience with bank tellers, it's completely in the Banks favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why it's a [censored] pain in the ass the way they control us and are allowed to force direct deposit on people who don't want it. Our only recourse is to complain as often as possible.

Re: Poker is a necessary annoyance for casino executives.
 

Good point about the blackjack Al. I was at O'sheas recently and there was a game being dealt out of a SHOE that paid 6:5 blackjack. No gimmick at all, the dealers weren't dressed like [censored] or anything. Just a regular BJ game except 6:5 payout. I think a few years from now there will be no more 3:2 tables in Vegas at all.