Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I threw the thought out.....to see what other's think of both the viability and probability of this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is a better chance they end up with Bonds for a year and I don't think that is very likely.

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

gorden edes says the sox are gonna meet with hiroki kuroda

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/play...p?PlayerID=986

hes a fa so no posting fee stuff

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Manny Ramirez should still be in the lineup. He's kinda good.

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He's absent in this lineup because he's no longer a Red Sox, which enables them to afford A-Rod.


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Did he die in a car accident? Based on your roster, it doesn't seem you got much for him in a trade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Addition by subtraction.....He's got a year left on his contract, so what do you do if you don't move him?

Move him for some legit prospects, free up the 20M to toss at A-Rod.

Again, I am NOT advocating this move, just throwing it out because it might be a legitimate option.

And to further fan the fire, he'd end up with.....da Bronx Bombers!

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
gorden edes says the sox are gonna meet with hiroki kuroda

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/play...p?PlayerID=986

hes a fa so no posting fee stuff

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a formula to somehow translate these stats?

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
gorden edes says the sox are gonna meet with hiroki kuroda

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/play...p?PlayerID=986

hes a fa so no posting fee stuff

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. How did this happen two seasons ago?

2006: 189.1 IP, 1.85 ERA, 1.025 WHIP, 144 Ks.


He seems to have very good control based on BB/IP.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
Addition by subtraction.....He's got a year left on his contract, so what do you do if you don't move him?

Move him for some legit prospects, free up the 20M to toss at A-Rod.

Again, I am NOT advocating this move, just throwing it out because it might be a legitimate option.

And to further fan the fire, he'd end up with.....da Bronx Bombers!


[/ QUOTE ]

Where are they going to move him (that is not a rhetorical question)? I would imagine that prospects wouldn't be necessary if his salary was off BOS hands. Free up 20M to toss at Arod? It appears that A-Rod lines his walls with 20M.

Why would he end up in NY?

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

theres probably MLEs somewhere if u google hard enough

my guess is that kuroda is about halfway between daisuke/schilling and lester/wake/tavarez

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
theres probably MLEs somewhere if u google hard enough

my guess is that kuroda is about halfway between daisuke/schilling and lester/wake/tavarez

[/ QUOTE ]

Wikipedia says this:

Hiroki Kuroda (born February 10, 1975) is a professional baseball player from Osaka, Japan. He is a starting pitcher for the Hiroshima Toyo Carp. He led the league with a 1.85 ERA in 2006, solidifying his reputation as one of the best pitchers in Japan. In a six year period (1999-2005), Kuroda lead the Central League in complete games.

He joined the Japanese olympic baseball team for the 2004 Summer Olympics, and won a bronze medal. He was also chosen to play in the 2006 WBC, but was unable to participate in the competition due to an injury.


So, he's one of Japan's best pitchers and he'll be 33 years old next year.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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[ QUOTE ]
He's absent in this lineup because he's no longer a Red Sox, which enables them to afford A-Rod.

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Nate Silver, in the same article referenced above, had a very good point about A-Rod. Boston doesn't need him. Even if they don't resign Lowell (which I am thinking they might), do you really want BOS to sign him for 10 years and 300M? It will be good for a few years, but he isn't going to bring more people to the games and BOS should be competing for a while anyways.

craig

[/ QUOTE ]

I disgaree, I think Bos can use A-Rod. Manny's gone after a year and A-Rod can replace him well. Epstein is good enough at developing young players and finding good cheap buys in the FA market but has struggled a bit in signing star players. A-Rod fits that bill, fills a need, is a better value than what I think Lowell will get, and Epstein's good enough to make up the $$ in other aras.

It would also make Bos the dominating best team for the next 4-5 years.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Addition by subtraction.....He's got a year left on his contract, so what do you do if you don't move him?

Move him for some legit prospects, free up the 20M to toss at A-Rod.

Again, I am NOT advocating this move, just throwing it out because it might be a legitimate option.

And to further fan the fire, he'd end up with.....da Bronx Bombers!


[/ QUOTE ]

Where are they going to move him (that is not a rhetorical question)? I would imagine that prospects wouldn't be necessary if his salary was off BOS hands. Free up 20M to toss at Arod? It appears that A-Rod lines his walls with 20M.

Why would he end up in NY?

craig

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, don't misunderstand me, I am NOT advocating this action.

I'm trying to take into account all of the various maneuvering that I anticipate happening in the off-season.

They could waive him (not like they haven't done it before?), or trade him outright for "prospects".

He'd end up on the Yanks for three reasons.....

The Yanks have lost A-Rod and need a replacement.

Manny is a native NY'er and that would sit well with their fan base.

The Yanks could spin it as positive PR to their fan base, and god knows, right about now they need SOMETHING positive!

....and as a wild card, let's not forget that somewhere out there, Scott Boras is weaving his 3rd or 4th level strategy.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disgaree, I think Bos can use A-Rod. Manny's gone after a year and A-Rod can replace him well. Epstein is good enough at developing young players and finding good cheap buys in the FA market but has struggled a bit in signing star players. A-Rod fits that bill, fills a need, is a better value than what I think Lowell will get, and Epstein's good enough to make up the $$ in other aras.

It would also make Bos the dominating best team for the next 4-5 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is better value than Lowell over the next 3 years, but is it better value than Lowell the next 3 years and his replacement(s) for another 7 years (assuming A-rod gets 10 years)? If BOS makes the playoffs 3 out of 5 of the next years without A-Rod would paying for A-Rod in order to make 4 out of 5 (or 5 out of 5) be worth it, (I don't know how much more revenue a playoff spot generates)? Also, A-Rod in the playoffs sucks, so BOS wouldn't even want him on the roster.

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disgaree, I think Bos can use A-Rod. Manny's gone after a year and A-Rod can replace him well. Epstein is good enough at developing young players and finding good cheap buys in the FA market but has struggled a bit in signing star players. A-Rod fits that bill, fills a need, is a better value than what I think Lowell will get, and Epstein's good enough to make up the $$ in other aras.

It would also make Bos the dominating best team for the next 4-5 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is better value than Lowell over the next 3 years, but is it better value than Lowell the next 3 years and his replacement(s) for another 7 years (assuming A-rod gets 10 years)? If BOS makes the playoffs 3 out of 5 of the next years, would going 4/5 or 5/5 produce enough value for A-Rod?

craig

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For the sake of clarity, this scenario is one that has both Lowell and A-Rod on the Sox.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of clarity, this scenario is one that has both Lowell and A-Rod on the Sox.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is Lowell going to play?

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

A-Rod is huge for the local TV station, NESN would gain a lot from having him, especially having the eventual HR champ wearing your uniform would help as well money wise. So essentially the 300m/10 yrs figure is misleading much like the contract of Dice K was, as the team who scores A-Rod gains a lot long term with merchandising and TV deals.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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For the sake of clarity, this scenario is one that has both Lowell and A-Rod on the Sox.

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Where is Lowell going to play?

craig

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Perhaps you should review the starting line-up that I posted (with positions) a bit more closely before you jump to any more conclusions?

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should review the starting line-up that I posted (with positions) a bit more closely before you jump to any more conclusions?

[/ QUOTE ]

So me asking a question, because I had forgotten about your lineup, is jumping to conclusions? I am pretty certain that me making an assumption is jumping to conclusions. Another example: 'That lineup must have been given 5 minutes of thought'

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

myrtle, you seriously need to think critically about these possibilities you are putting out there, you are spouting utter nonsense.

sox resign lowell AND get a-rod... and do what, exactly, with lugo? oh right, same thing they'll do with manny... dump him for 'prospects.' and probably end up eating half his salary. sounds great.

in the extremely unlikely scenario that they do get a-rod, they don't need to waive manny to do so. what they WOULD do is let mike lowell walk since he is going to get a way bigger deal than they should give him. the odds that both mike lowell and a-rod are on the sox next year are somewhere in the million-to-one ballpark, and that's being generous.

why manny would end up in new york is totally beyond me. yeah he's from wash heights (represent!) but the yankees don't let you wear dreadlocks, or bring your bath toys to left field with you, or take a piss in the middle of an inning, or do any of the other manny-being-manny crap. they also already have about seven over-the-hill outfielders and four DHs, so unless you think he's going to pitch i don't see what they're going to do with him.

lester's USPIDE is around a #3 starter, but if you are projecting him to be better than buchholz next year, or possibly even schilling / wake, you're high. he hasn't come close to pitching a full season, which is important with a developing young arm, and pretty much all his peripheral stats point to him running sick hot so far. i love the kid and i think he's going to be a good pitcher, but he's not a top-3 SP on the sox next year.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

I think the Red Sox also are going to need a very good bat to bring off the bench. I think over the next few years Ortiz is not going to be averaging 150 games a year.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod is huge for the local TV station, NESN would gain a lot from having him, especially having the eventual HR champ wearing your uniform would help as well money wise. So essentially the 300m/10 yrs figure is misleading much like the contract of Dice K was, as the team who scores A-Rod gains a lot long term with merchandising and TV deals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I for some reason was being very short sighted thinking that A-Rod would be playing 3B or 1B. I somehow didn't even think about him as DH later on (Totally brain fart on my part). I don't know how much more value this brings, but definitely wasn't in any of my considerations.

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

i still like my idea of moving him to 1B until papi is gone, let youk play third.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

So Lester used to have more on his fastball, like 95-96, probably why the better prospect debate with Paps. He got sick, maybe lost a bit, he was 92, but hit 94 vs. Rockies, and had that cutter hard and in on righties. He hasn't been that impressive overall, solid, but not great, running good. That's my understanding.

At 23? right, he could really be good, don't you think, if he can get the velocity up. Obviously, surviving cancer and winning game 4, got to give him perspective and confidence.

I always want teams to stand pat after winning it all, bring everyone back, maybe retool here or there. But that's not the best way long term, I know.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should review the starting line-up that I posted (with positions) a bit more closely before you jump to any more conclusions?

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So me asking a question, because I had forgotten about your lineup, is jumping to conclusions? I am pretty certain that me making an assumption is jumping to conclusions. Another example: 'That lineup must have been given 5 minutes of thought'

craig

[/ QUOTE ]

Craig,

I don't mean to be harsh, but what else am I to think?

How could you have asked that question if you had done anything more than take a cursory glance at the lineup that I posted.

And, your smart-ass "5 minute" comment shows nothing more than your inability to think beyond the obvious.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
myrtle, you seriously need to think critically about these possibilities you are putting out there, you are spouting utter nonsense.

sox resign lowell AND get a-rod... and do what, exactly, with lugo? oh right, same thing they'll do with manny... dump him for 'prospects.' and probably end up eating half his salary. sounds great.

in the extremely unlikely scenario that they do get a-rod, they don't need to waive manny to do so. what they WOULD do is let mike lowell walk since he is going to get a way bigger deal than they should give him. the odds that both mike lowell and a-rod are on the sox next year are somewhere in the million-to-one ballpark, and that's being generous.

why manny would end up in new york is totally beyond me. yeah he's from wash heights (represent!) but the yankees don't let you wear dreadlocks, or bring your bath toys to left field with you, or take a piss in the middle of an inning, or do any of the other manny-being-manny crap. they also already have about seven over-the-hill outfielders and four DHs, so unless you think he's going to pitch i don't see what they're going to do with him.

lester's USPIDE is around a #3 starter, but if you are projecting him to be better than buchholz next year, or possibly even schilling / wake, you're high. he hasn't come close to pitching a full season, which is important with a developing young arm, and pretty much all his peripheral stats point to him running sick hot so far. i love the kid and i think he's going to be a good pitcher, but he's not a top-3 SP on the sox next year.

[/ QUOTE ]

NT, with respect……

I have thought critically about this.

This subject dwells in an arena that can best be described as….”If you think it, you can do it”, so please don’t tell me that it’s “un-doable”.

The only consideration that affects the above is…. “What is the cost/Is it worth it?”

A million to one on Lowell/A-Rod on the Sox? You’re on. Who holds my dollar, and who hold your megabuck?

If the lineup that I advanced comes to be, what is it about “dumping” Lugo and eating some of his salary that offends you?

If anything, it should offend me, as my season ticket box seats have jumped from $9 each in 1987 to $80 each in 2007, and are likely to increase again.

Did Damon lose the locks and facial hair when he hit The City?

Manny would play right field for the Bombers, methinks.

C’mon my friend, ya gotta get past first level thinking here (no insult intended).

We can certainly disagree on the projected worth of Lester. I’m not saying that I have a 100% crystal ball, but please examine the facts surrounding his history a bit more closely before you cap him at a #3 slot.

And once again, I would remind you that I am NOT advocating that this is what I would do if I were King of the Red Sox……I am saying that it is not unreasonable that it could go this way, given the craziness in today’s market and the specific current conditions (Yanks, Sox, Boras et al).

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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I like the Ortiz at 1B, Manny at DH, Youk at 3rd, Ellsbury/Crisp/Drew OF that Silver threw out today.

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I like this a lot too. Papi in his few short stints at 1B has never embarrassed himself. The big problem here though is health. He barely made it through this season with his bad knees just dh-ing.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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I like the Ortiz at 1B, Manny at DH, Youk at 3rd, Ellsbury/Crisp/Drew OF that Silver threw out today.

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I like this a lot too. Papi in his few short stints at 1B has never embarrassed himself. The big problem here though is health. He barely made it through this season with his bad knees just dh-ing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can Hinske play 3b on Youk's off days? I would be ok with this, as long as Papi can come back strong after surgery.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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Manny would play right field for the Bombers, methinks.


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Manny would move from an easier position to a more difficult one. When he can barely cover the second-easiest defensive position in baseball already. Right. And this will all happen because Scott Boras is out there with his crazy machinations. Sure.

Myrtle I appreciate that you are a nice, patient guy about this, but you don't know a [censored] thing about baseball if you really think any of these things are remotely likely.

What 'offends' me about dumping Lugo and his salary is that management won't do it. They won't sink $350MM+ into a left side of the infield with an average age of 34, then eat another $30MM of Lugo's money when he's at a low point in his value and they'd have to beg somebody to take him. If they do all this and bring Schilling back next year, their payroll would be what, $180MM? What are you, a Yankees fan?

We just won a WS by being patient with our youth movement, bringing along our own draft picks and focusing on pitching. Now you want to immediately go out and spend a third of a [censored] billion dollars on overpriced veteran hitters?

Seriously, give up your season tickets, move to the [censored] Bronx and see if the Steinbrenners will let you sit in their box. You'd fit right in. Thank god Theo and the rest of the FO don't think the way you do, or we'd probably still have Pedro instead of Buchholz, Cabrera instead of Ellsbury, and Johnny Damon limping around the outfield.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the Ortiz at 1B, Manny at DH, Youk at 3rd, Ellsbury/Crisp/Drew OF that Silver threw out today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this a lot too. Papi in his few short stints at 1B has never embarrassed himself. The big problem here though is health. He barely made it through this season with his bad knees just dh-ing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can Hinske play 3b on Youk's off days? I would be ok with this, as long as Papi can come back strong after surgery.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't Cora the ultimate utility guy. Youk isn't going to get many days off so back-up 3B should not be a big consideration.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

I don't know how competent these guys are at playing 3B. I may be overestimating the change from SS/2B to 3B.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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I don't know how competent these guys are at playing 3B. I may be overestimating the change from SS/2B to 3B.

[/ QUOTE ]

3B is easier than 2B or SS to play, but arm strength would be a consideration.

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

hinske can play any of the corners, but i wouldn't count on him being around. cora can play 3B in a pinch.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the Ortiz at 1B, Manny at DH, Youk at 3rd, Ellsbury/Crisp/Drew OF that Silver threw out today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this a lot too. Papi in his few short stints at 1B has never embarrassed himself. The big problem here though is health. He barely made it through this season with his bad knees just dh-ing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same thing applies with Manny, though. Papi sucking up the DH just for him has hurt Manny.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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hinske can play any of the corners, but i wouldn't count on him being around. cora can play 3B in a pinch.

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With Arod, Lowell, youk, and pedroia in the infield, BOS could probably take some of the prospects they get for Lugo and turn one into a corner infielder as a backup. Plus, we could probably pick up quite a bit by getting rid of manny. Whoever we get for him could bat behind Youk who, with his base clogging ways, will be hitting 7th.

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

It's a good thing they won't get any prospects for Lugo.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
And once again, I would remind you that I am NOT advocating that this is what I would do if I were King of the Red Sox……I am saying that it is not unreasonable that it could go this way, given the craziness in today’s market and the specific current conditions (Yanks, Sox, Boras et al).

[/ QUOTE ]

What current conditions? If anything, at least for 08, BOS will not need to win as many games as this year to win the division. The changes you are suggesting make BOS the same or not as good of a team than they are now, but for more money. Plus they will be hurting their future for years to come.

It's one thing to argue that Arod will be a plus for BOS (as there is validity to that), but putting him back at SS, getting rid of lugo and manny, even if that means eating their salary, resigning lowell, schilling as a 5th starter, and Youk batting 7th with his OBP because Ellsbury had a great 116 bats and Pedroia is ROTY is nothing short of either leveling or honestly not thinking through this.

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a good thing they won't get any prospects for Lugo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine! Then dump Lugo, cover his salary, and get Eckstein for SS. Whatever it takes to make a great team worse, I am all for it.

craig

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

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I don't know how competent these guys are at playing 3B. I may be overestimating the change from SS/2B to 3B.

[/ QUOTE ]

3B is easier than 2B or SS to play, but arm strength would be a consideration.

craig

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that was my point that I decided not to make. Is Cora's arm strong enough? Consensus seems to be yes.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

craig, you think he's serious? I don't think anyone could be serious with that.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


We just won a WS by being patient with our youth movement, bringing along our own draft picks and focusing on pitching. Now you want to immediately go out and spend a third of a [censored] billion dollars on overpriced veteran hitters?

Seriously, give up your season tickets, move to the [censored] Bronx and see if the Steinbrenners will let you sit in their box. You'd fit right in. Thank god Theo and the rest of the FO don't think the way you do, or we'd probably still have Pedro instead of Buchholz, Cabrera instead of Ellsbury, and Johnny Damon limping around the outfield.

[/ QUOTE ]

WE just won a WS? Sorry, I didn't know you were an employee or team member of the Red Sox.

Seriously, why don't you take your insults and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

oh look, not only do you not know anything about baseball, you can't use the quote function either. go back to politics plz

Re: For Dissection....2008 Red Sox Roster........
 

I am going to go on the record and say I pray to god Lugo is back next year, he played awesome in the playoffs and was downright great on D in the postseason. I would be a happy guy if the IF stayed the exact same. Moving a GG caliber 1b in Youk to 3b is a disaster waiting to happen, he proved he isn't as good on D at 3b, granted his O fits better as a 3rd baseman but I still hate it. Also, for obvious reasons, keeping Papi off the field is huge for our long term success.