The flop I am looking for is....
 

6 Handed....3/5NL

Effective stacks - $750

You are viewed as primarily TAG with the ability to take odd lines on occasion.

Both BTN and BB are your same ol' semi weak tight TAGs, who tend to miss value bets and/but can payoff thin.

You open from the CO with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to $20. BTN and BB call.

($63) K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

or

($63) Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Which flop would you prefer and why? Does your decision change if you are have position?

edit- Oh crap, I inverted the J and the T. Changing the post to reflect that....sorry.

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

KJ3 don't think it's close.

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

I think I'd prefer the first one because it's more likely that we'll win a big pot if we hit our draw. They're more likely to make a pair with Kx and not fold their TP than they would be likely to make a pair with Qx where x is lesser than T but isn't a 7 or 5.

It may be tough if an ace hits because they'll slow down with their Kx but we're just never gonna win a big pot on the second flop unless we turn a T and draw out on their QA-QJ.

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

I guess I could've answered in 5 words like Fonkey too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

Both are fine. First one you can double barrel big, second bet the flop and take it down, check turn, etc.

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

agree with Fonkey
weak-tights will be more likely to check their nice jacks and medium kings along with you and then call your smallish VBs imo.

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Both are fine. First one you can double barrel big, second bet the flop and take it down, check turn, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bluffing in the 2nd hand just as in the first hand, but at least in the 1st hand you have 8 outs to improve to the nuts.

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

nice post josh

from the description it sounds like they'll play us fairly straightforwardly in both spots.

i'm not certain how we expect to play a big pot in hand 1 unless we semi-bluff ourselves into it and river a 9 against their unlikely two pair+.

in hand 2, we may not always "know" if we are best as we valuebet, so the variance found there will be in where we fall against their range rather than whether or not we hit our draw (valuestacking ourselves versus valuetowning them).

i would still feel more comfortable valuetowning hand 2 and getting called down by 99 or whatever a decent percentage than betting $50 in hand 1 and praying to hit one of four nines AND be up against KJ+.

edit: also worth noting we're going to get called on the flop by gutterballs in hand1 and lose the pot at showdown a fair amount

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Both are fine. First one you can double barrel big, second bet the flop and take it down, check turn, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bluffing in the 2nd hand just as in the first hand, but at least in the 1st hand you have 8 outs to improve to the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

fonkey i know you've never played live so trust me when i say, when you hold QT and bet a Q - medium - rag board at a live game, it is anything but a bluff.

Re: The flop I am looking for is....
 

Just to note, I did edit the post. Not sure how much that affects your thinking sinmce only one extra hand do we now beat...

Also this post was meant for MSNL but maybe we can generate good discussion about it here as well.

All- Why again would we be bluffing if we bet the flop in hand 2?