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-   -   ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot) (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=535766)

SlowRoll 11-18-2007 11:53 AM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
If i wasn't so retarded i would like to post my last 18K hands at NL100. 10pttbb+/100 imo.

How do i post a pic?

thing85 11-18-2007 11:59 AM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Don't want to blur the lines between micro nl and small stakes nl.
I see it as each level you go up, the average experience, of the regulars, at the table rises. So starting at 2nl or 5nl. The regulars, who are building roles, is low. People play bad.
10nl has more regs, play is still bad but much more regulars, who have more experience than 5nl.
25nl will have alot more regs, alot more experience at the tables, but regular players will still have lots of flaw.
Tables at 50nl will have a high proportion of regulars, mistakes become more costly, ABC play begins to bring your winrate down.

What is 100nl like on a scale like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

TAG ABC play at 50NL is very profitable. Don't confuse ABC with completely transparent (although they are not mutually exclusive). You need to mix it up every once in awhile, but you can still win with a pretty standard ABC strategy.

At 100NL, the only big difference is that you have more regs who are more aggressive. You need to know your opponent better to know what will work; otherwise, you will be destroyed by aggression. Against some regs, blind steals never seem to work. You will be 3bet and 4bet more often.

IMO, the best thing you can do assuming you hold your ABC game constant is table select better. If you can get position on 1 or 2 bad players, it doesn't matter a whole lot what limit you're at (assuming you have an adequate bankroll). The biggest problem people have when they move up is that they try to play differently. You do need to adjust, but it's not as big an adjustment as people think. If you're a nitty TAG at 50NL, you shouldn't have to become a super LAG at 100NL.

I normally play 8 or 9 tables at 50NL, but now that I moved up to 100NL, I'm limiting myself to 4-6 tables. I think it's really important to cut down at least for your first 10k hands, so that you allow yourself to make the minor adjustments. IMO, it's pretty tough to make minor adjustments when you're playing so many tables. The reason many of us are successful multitablers is because we have the experience to make so many moves and reads intuitively and efficiently. You may think you still have this when you move up, and while you do for the most part, you lack some intuition with respect to the minor differences between limits. Over time, that compounds and costs you money. So, yeah, play less tables when you move up, at first.

Now I've kind of rambled for awhile so I'll stop...

monkover 11-18-2007 12:23 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
thing really good post imo. the only point i donīt agree on with you is that limiting the number of tables imo is no a good idea. I did that every time i tried to move up to 200nl and i started doing fancy stuff and consequently lost money. last time i tried to move up to 200nl (this weekend) is just continued 8 tableing played my solid TAG game and beat the games at imo a very good rate.

fozzy71 11-18-2007 12:27 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
If i wasn't so retarded i would like to post my last 18K hands at NL100. 10pttbb+/100 imo.

How do i post a pic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Upload pic to PhotoBucket or Imageshack. Copy the Direct Link. Post a new reply here - click the [Image] Instant UBB Code button, paste in direct link, click OK, and preview/post.

Mr_Pathetic 11-18-2007 12:37 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
anytime i play more then four i am just an autopiloting nitbox. can't build reads except for hudstats, can't see what ppl are showing down all the time, and in general just cant think through all the actions like i should. imo paying close attention to your opponents is worth a lot more then playing a lot of tables. if you find yourself playing four tables and getting fancy it is b/c you are never trying to make good reads when playing a ton of tables but just going through the motions. Sure playing less tables makes you get fancy but it makes you learn a lot more too and learning more has to be more +EV longterm then playing a ton of tables.

Edit: all you FTP NL50 regs I will be seeing you later!

Wilpro 11-18-2007 12:40 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
I got a little tool from the imageshack website. Whatever frame i have selected, i can press Alt-U and it copies a url to my 'clipboard'. Pretty nice and really fast for posting pics.

monkover 11-18-2007 12:45 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
anytime i play more then four i am just an autopiloting nitbox. can't build reads except for hudstats, can't see what ppl are showing down all the time, and in general just cant think through all the actions like i should. imo paying close attention to your opponents is worth a lot more then playing a lot of tables. if you find yourself playing four tables and getting fancy it is b/c you are never trying to make good reads when playing a ton of tables but just going through the motions. Sure playing less tables makes you get fancy but it makes you learn a lot more too and learning more has to be more +EV longterm then playing a ton of tables.

Edit: all you FTP NL50 regs I will be seeing you later!

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry but i couldnīt agree less with you here. imo the problem at unl/ssnl is that you donīt have to have any reads except the stats to play paerfectly against a villain. you def lose some ev but itīs negelgible compared to the benifit of playing 2 as many tables (slightly lower winrate/2 as much rb)

thing85 11-18-2007 12:47 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
thing really good post imo. the only point i donīt agree on with you is that limiting the number of tables imo is no a good idea. I did that every time i tried to move up to 200nl and i started doing fancy stuff and consequently lost money. last time i tried to move up to 200nl (this weekend) is just continued 8 tableing played my solid TAG game and beat the games at imo a very good rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're right if you assume people get too fancy when they play less tables. If you need more tables to force you to play nitty/TAG, then that may work for you. My point was that you can't really focus on the nuances of the new limit if you're just focused on folding and playing the same nitty way you played at your previous limit. I'm not saying you won't be a winner - you probably will be. However, you're become much more vulnerable to aggression because you haven't taken the time to adjust your play. You'll probably fold to most 3bets, and not 4bet in spots where it's warranted. You also don't get as good of reads, so when someone is constantly 2-barreling you with air and you're folding turns that you should be raising, you're missing value. I'm not saying you should stay at a low # of tables. Maybe you only need 5k hands to adjust instead of 10k. I just think you need some amount of adjustment time where you really focus and think about your every move before getting back to playing more of an autopilot style.

hennnerz 11-18-2007 12:49 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Bah that $100 turbo sat to FTOPS main event starts at 7:30, not 8:30 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
time for bed then, have to be up in 6 hours

[/ QUOTE ]

Yo, I am in that too. Why are you playing it if the ME is already in your 3 mtts for the day!?

GL bro, hit me up on MSN later.

fozzy71 11-18-2007 12:49 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I got a little tool from the imageshack website. Whatever frame i have selected, i can press Alt-U and it copies a url to my 'clipboard'. Pretty nice and really fast for posting pics.

[/ QUOTE ]

I use the Flock Web Browser (Mozilla based), which has a built in Media Bar at the top, and a Web Clipboard on the side. The Mediabar logs me into Photobucket, and has a built in mass photo uploader. I can then right click and copy the different links from the thumbnails displayed. The Web Clipboard can be used to drag/drop text/images from any web page for use later.

http://www.flock.com/

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...sc/flock-7.jpg

thing85 11-18-2007 12:51 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
itīs negelgible compared to the benifit of playing 2 as many tables (slightly lower winrate/2 as much rb)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100%. The difference in winrates is absolutely compensated for by playing more tables and winning more $/hour. But, if you take some time to improve your play and style, when you step back up to 8 tables you will be a better player and can win even more than you did if you never lowered your tables to improve your play. 8 tables after adjusting your play >> Moving up limits and immediately playing 8 tables.

If the low # of tables is really boring you and affecting your play negatively, mix in a couple low-limit SnGs or something to keep you occupied while you have nothing to do on your cash tables.

monkover 11-18-2007 12:52 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thing really good post imo. the only point i donīt agree on with you is that limiting the number of tables imo is no a good idea. I did that every time i tried to move up to 200nl and i started doing fancy stuff and consequently lost money. last time i tried to move up to 200nl (this weekend) is just continued 8 tableing played my solid TAG game and beat the games at imo a very good rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're right if you assume people get too fancy when they play less tables. If you need more tables to force you to play nitty/TAG, then that may work for you. My point was that you can't really focus on the nuances of the new limit if you're just focused on folding and playing the same nitty way you played at your previous limit. I'm not saying you won't be a winner - you probably will be. However, you're become much more vulnerable to aggression because you haven't taken the time to adjust your play. You'll probably fold to most 3bets, and not 4bet in spots where it's warranted. You also don't get as good of reads, so when someone is constantly 2-barreling you with air and you're folding turns that you should be raising, you're missing value. I'm not saying you should stay at a low # of tables. Maybe you only need 5k hands to adjust instead of 10k. I just think you need some amount of adjustment time where you really focus and think about your every move before getting back to playing more of an autopilot style.

[/ QUOTE ]

Iīm still 4beting light and calling down with w/e if i think it is warranted. there are other players at ssnl that 12table 200nl and win at 12ptbb/100

thing85 11-18-2007 12:53 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
12 tabling and winning 12ptbb/100 is not even remotely near sustainable play.

monkover 11-18-2007 12:57 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
12 tabling and winning 12ptbb/100 is not even remotely near sustainable play.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? ask thac i was chatting with him a couple of days ago about a LAG heīs 2p2 but forgot his name brad or osomething and heīs running at that rate. and imo it is sustainable if you are good enough

thing85 11-18-2007 01:01 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Maybe it's possible for a small handful of exceptional players (although I still don't believe it can be done over a large enough sample), but we're discussing something to try and apply it to the majority of players here.

Spurious 11-18-2007 01:03 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
12 tabling and winning 12ptbb/100 is not even remotely near sustainable play.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? ask thac i was chatting with him a couple of days ago about a LAG heīs 2p2 but forgot his name brad or osomething and heīs running at that rate. and imo it is sustainable if you are good enough

[/ QUOTE ]

the LAG isnt 12 tabling i guess
there is a big difference

Wilpro 11-18-2007 01:08 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Just looked through the SSNL FT regs thread, only a few players are getting close to 5ptbb/100 over a 10k+ sample size. Really can't believe people are beating it for 12ptbb/100 12 tabling.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/761/topbillzkv9.jpg

Stole that from in there for biggest winners

hennnerz 11-18-2007 01:22 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Pretty sure those numbers are in bb/100 yeah?

LT22 11-18-2007 01:27 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
those are definitely ptbb/100

Wilpro 11-18-2007 01:30 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
PTBB isnt it?

56344 hands at 2x ($4.86/100) = 5477 from first example

Nemesis69 11-18-2007 01:31 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
wot it do +10BI in a 3hour session.

I ran pretty hot the last 30 minutes!

Nemesis69 11-18-2007 01:32 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Poker I luv you!

Wilpro 11-18-2007 01:35 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
gz, +100, +250 or +500 ??

whyzze 11-18-2007 01:44 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
you guys are blowing everything out of proportion.


the worst thing you can do when moving up is change a working system.

i think that any Ptbb/100 you can do at nl50, is doable at nl100.


having the attitude that the game is any tougher is baaaaaaddd...ive logged 20k hands at nl100 and done well. I attribute my success to 2 things:

Not acknowledging any difference in skill level and therefore not changing my play in any way shape or form.

playing shorter session that were always winners at first. You need the confidence boost. You should get in like an old man into a bath, but you shouldn't fix whats working.

Kimo White Devil 11-18-2007 01:47 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
every database of 100NL and 200NL has shown no long term winner over 7ptbb/100 since I have been a member here. so 5 is good enough for most of us.

oh and hourly/montly rate with boni/rakeback is what is really important, not that ptbb/100 stat. I so much prefer running 3 ptbb/100 8-talbing than running 5 ptbb/100 4 tabling.

You guys put way too much importance at ptbb/100 and stats. I guess its the way to compare yourself to others and is really not helping you imo.

Grow a roll and become a man, thats what its all about.

In other news I have to cashout for christmas gifts and 200NL will have to wait some more.

thing85 11-18-2007 01:49 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
you guys are blowing everything out of proportion.


the worst thing you can do when moving up is change a working system.

i think that any Ptbb/100 you can do at nl50, is doable at nl100.


having the attitude that the game is any tougher is baaaaaaddd...ive logged 20k hands at nl100 and done well. I attribute my success to 2 things:

Not acknowledging any difference in skill level and therefore not changing my play in any way shape or form.

playing shorter session that were always winners at first. You need the confidence boost. You should get in like an old man into a bath, but you shouldn't fix whats working.

[/ QUOTE ]

whyzze, I took your short session advice and I like it a lot. At the same time, I'm mad at myself for not getting in many hands lately. Oh well.

I semi-disagree that you shouldn't change anything. It really depends on the player. If you're an autopilot nit, you will probably be exploited at 100NL. It's not to say you won't win money, but you won't fare well against the solid regs.

Spurious 11-18-2007 01:50 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
every database or 100 and 200 has shwon no long term winner over 7ptbb/100 since i have been a member here. so 5 is good enough for most of us.
Oh and I was running 5ptbb/100 for 100K than I hit a breakeven for 75K and I am looking at a 3ptbb/100 today. so all you need to think about is a heatly growth for your roll.

oh and hourly/montly rate with boni/rakeback is what is really important, not that ptbb/100 stat. I so much prefer running 3 ptbb/100 8-talbing than running 5 ptbb/100 4 tabling.

You guys put way too much importance at ptbb/100 and stats. I guess its the way to compare yourself to others and is really not helping you imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you wanna play just for the money, you are right

but if you want to develop as a player, 8tabling < 4tabling

and i think good players can play at more than 7PTBB

whyzze 11-18-2007 01:52 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
yes, of course there will be more players who can exploit you. Thats why I datamine alot and use spadeye, i avoid the big winners as best I can.

Funny thing is, I was playing HU and one of the better regs sat down with me. I told him i didn't realy want to play him but i had already taken like a 1/2 bI off him in 5 hands. So i was like whatever....i ended up peeling about 250 off of him.

Kimo White Devil 11-18-2007 01:53 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
if you wanna play just for the money, you are right

but if you want to develop as a player, 8tabling < 4tabling

and i think good players can play at more than 7PTBB

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in the long term but they will move up before that. oh and 8-tabling : more hands, more scenarios, more experience, more reads. We are not talking about 24-tabling here. 8 is quite slow action in fact.

thing85 11-18-2007 01:54 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Kimo,

You're definitely correct, but no one is saying that ptbb/100 is really important on its own. If you had the choice between 3ptbb/100 playing 8 tables or 3.1ptbb/100 at 8 tables, you'd obviously pick the latter. My point is, even the slightest increase is beneficial to your bottom line, so why not do what you can to improve it? I would never advocate dropping tables down permanently just to achieve a higher win rate. What I would advocate is dropping the # temporarily to improve your play for when you step back up to 8 tabling. I'd gladly play 5-10k hands at 4 tables if it'll improve my 8-table win rate by .2. In the long-run, I will be better off.

LT22 11-18-2007 01:54 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you guys are blowing everything out of proportion.


the worst thing you can do when moving up is change a working system.

i think that any Ptbb/100 you can do at nl50, is doable at nl100.


having the attitude that the game is any tougher is baaaaaaddd...ive logged 20k hands at nl100 and done well. I attribute my success to 2 things:

Not acknowledging any difference in skill level and therefore not changing my play in any way shape or form.

playing shorter session that were always winners at first. You need the confidence boost. You should get in like an old man into a bath, but you shouldn't fix whats working.

[/ QUOTE ]

whyzze, I took your short session advice and I like it a lot. At the same time, I'm mad at myself for not getting in many hands lately. Oh well.

I semi-disagree that you shouldn't change anything. It really depends on the player. If you're an autopilot nit, you will probably be exploited at 100NL. It's not to say you won't win money, but you won't fare well against the solid regs.

[/ QUOTE ]

table selection is the key...NL100 isn't hard

whyzze 11-18-2007 01:56 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
sdlfkjlsa;dkjg;lkdajfl;kdsfj

I hate donkaments...i cant win a single 60/40 or flip

Spurious 11-18-2007 01:57 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Quick question:


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $6
CO: $2.95
BTN: $9.85
SB: $13.35
Hero (BB): $10.55
UTG: $9.45

MP posts $0.10
Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $0.50</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.50</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.50</font>, UTG calls $4, BTN calls $3

Flop: ($13.65) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6.05 and is All-In</font>

Button is a lagtard (55/35/3.5), and UTG is an idiot

Who is not paying off here?



@Kimo:
More tables, less focus, less thinking
it is player dependant obviously

Nemesis69 11-18-2007 02:02 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Nobody in uNL imo.

Wilpro 11-18-2007 02:07 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Wonder how often you see AA, QQ or JJ pop up in that spur [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Spurious 11-18-2007 02:08 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
one had JJ the idiot had AQs

DaycareInferno 11-18-2007 02:14 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
i think some players do a lot better by playing a number of tables that doesn't allow them to think everything through completely. mostly because they overthink things when they have the time and invent good bluffing situations that really aren't actually good at all.

kaz2107 11-18-2007 02:16 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
awsome brag:... http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...ntitled-19.jpg
brag or beat [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]:had 500 bucks in my account at the begining of september
beat: dont have a very good win rate at n e of the limits. just been grinding hard and gettin boni and rb and winning some while running bad


varience... im done playin till after thnx gvng so i think imma do sumthing for unl. n e suggestions?? i was thinking of like an "ask kaz about bluffing and playin aggresive" im open for suggestions tho.

whyzze 11-18-2007 02:18 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
is that the absolute poker?

Wilpro 11-18-2007 02:19 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
i think some players do a lot better by playing a number of tables that doesn't allow them to think everything through completely. mostly because they overthink things when they have the time and invent good bluffing situations that really aren't actually good at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

At micros don't you want to be playing at 2nd level thinking. That is where you think what cards your opponent could have. You want to play against donkeys who are first level thinkers, what there own cards are.
Now the less tables you play, the more you start to get into a 3rd level thinking, were you get tricky thinking your opponent might be thinking what your cards are. This however is bad, as getting tricky against 1st level players is spew.


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