We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

Cribbed from previous cliff's notes. Thanks to all. A lot of this is copy/pasted from Josem's last cliffnotes, so thanks Josem for those.



Short version: There is almost indisputable proof that users at AP were cheating by somehow viewing the whole cards of their opponents. Some information has come out that indicates an AP employee or ex-employee may have been involved. There is further evidence that it may be ex-owner, Scott Tom.

Long version:

---------- entire history since POTRIPPER tournament ----------

1) During a tournament played by cheater 'Potripper,' the person who ended up coming second ("Marco") thought he was cheated. He emailed Absolute, and they sent him a hand history file - an XLS file.

2) Marco opened up this file, it seemed all gibberish to him, and he didn't think anything of it.

3) First Absolute Poker scandal blow up - PT screenshots, etc. Graphical representation here: http://www.absolutepokercheats.com/vpipvbb.jpg

4) Fortnight passes

5) In passing discussion, Marco mentions he has this file. He shares it with a few people, including N 80 50 24(pokerdb.com maintainer, maker of The Poker Film, part owner of Bluff Media) who analyses what is in this file

6) Nat (N 82 50 24) & 2p2 poster Snagglepuss discover that this file is a complete hand history for the tournament - showing every table, and all hole cards of every player.

Hand histories here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=0&fpart=1
Youtube video of hands being replayed here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FczbS7FiWSM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/ .

[/ QUOTE ]



7) In further analysis of the spreadsheet, Nat and Snagglepuss determine that the IP address, user number and email address of observers has been documented.

8) In 7, they determine that an account with user number 363 observes Potripper's table from 2 minutes into the tournament until the end.

9) At the start of the tournament, for the two hands that user #363 is not observing the table, Potripper folds preflop. He doesn't fold another hand pre-flop for 20minutes, when he open-folds with KK held by a player behind him.

10) They also discover another observer, with the same IP (in San Jose, Costa Rica), with a different user number and the email address scott@rivieraltd.com, observing another table for a short period of time.

11) It is speculated that the other observer could be Potripper's user account.

12) It was determined that the domain rivieraltd.com was pointing to a mail server which happened to be on an IP allocated to Absolute Entertainment SA, at Mohawk Internet Technologies' data center.

12.5) Shortly (within an hour or two) after the findings in 12 are posted here, the DNS information for rivieraltd.com is deleted.

13)The IP associated with the observer in #10 turns out to be a residential cable modem registered to Scott Tom, AP's President as of 2005.

14)Mason weighs in on things here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

15)Absolute sends an email to one player saying they will undergo a formal audit from gamingassociates.com here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ge=0&vc=1.
AP also claims Scott Tom has not been employed by AP for over a year, although its known that he was involved with AP as recently as 6 months ago, and may still be running the show from behind the scenes.

16) Steven D. Levitt posts about this story on his NY Times blog for the second time:
First post http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.co...-not-to-cheat/
New post http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/20...lown-wide-open/

17) The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com. AJ Green changed his name from Allan Grimard, and was involved in internat scams before AP.

18) The ABS Poker worker who sent the .xls file out no longer is employed by Absolute.

19) DanDruff speaks to a "senior" member of staff @ AP Dan Druff's 1st suggestion http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12545720

A lot of uproar and criticism followed this post from DD, xxxlink

DD's Next Idea http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12546896

Dan Druff's view http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12546433

21) Absolute agree to letting KGC audit/investigate them :

KGC Story
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12548190
http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommi...ry.asp?show=10


22) Mark Seif plays $1k tourney on Absolute and gets grilled by the rail...but then proceeds to still deny that tourney hands look suspicious and say that Dan Druff is likely to be sued for slander yadda yadda yadda...

23) Associated Press have picked up the story...http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?S=7229673

24) P5's Admin invited to ABS Poker offices in Costa Rica... Meeting doesn't go as people would have hoped as Absolute still denying a lot pretty much..but P5's possibly letting them off lightly when presented with a great opportunity.
Crossposted Summary
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12553493

25) AJ Green/Potripper on AP = FATRAISER on Stars
Scott Tom has account at Ultimate Bet under the name of 'PotChopper'

Potchoppers Non-cashes from the DB
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12554120

26) More Absolute Staff appearing to be 2+2 members :

[ QUOTE ]

Josem :

I am reliably informed that:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&User=7262 = RUNNINONMT on UB
That player is Brent Beckley, another major player at AP

his email is brent@rivieraltd.com and from the montana group of people who run ap

[/ QUOTE ]
Brent also runs the security department at AP.

27) Several other "suspicious" $500 MTT winners were listed but so far, nothing concrete on those, and probably just paranoia.

28) Dan Druff second call from AP was handled by a PR flak and was back to the usual stonewalling and lies.

Dan Druff's 2nd Call with AP
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12554163

29) Gambling911 picks up the story: http://www.gambling911.com/Absolute-Poker-101807.html

30) P5's gets a phone call saying AP will make a statment saying their system were compromised and they will provide details in a statment coming shortly.

http://www.pocketfives.com/18B87A4F-...9C725E0FA.aspx

--------- history in last thread ----------

31) The interwebs go wild with everyone patting themselves on the back. Many think AP will own up to everything and redeem themselves.

32) Now that both sides have made public statements and talked with news organizations, the story starts hitting the mass media.

"No management involved" story on Gambling911: http://www.gambling911.com/Absolute-Poker-101907.html
The 'geek' defense on MSN: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21381022/
ABC News coverage: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/sto...500&page=1

33) While agreeing that the stories are all generally well written, posters immediately point out the holes in AP's story, noting it is ripped directly from the plot of recent big-screen blockbuster Live Free or Die Hard. Other posters point out that we might want to wait until the "official" statement, so as to avoid giving AP more information to concoct a believable cover story.

34) N 82 50 24 and Adanthar state that they have more information on AP, but will refrain (for now) from posting the drama bombs to avoid tipping their hand to AP, essentially allowing them to hang themselves with the rope they've been given. We're definitely playing a game of cat-and-mouse with AP now, and AP is losing.

35) A plea from NLfool:
[ QUOTE ]
somebody please save all the previous releases from AP and their previous emails to AP players and post it another thread for clarity or the media. There have to be so many lies in it that the public should even be able to decipher.

[/ QUOTE ]
AP has shown a willingness to try and make evidence disappear. Can someone catalog everything so that their lies are visible to all? Thanks.

36) Mark Seif agrees to have the HHs from his questionable session posted to clear up the issue. Mark and stuckinpgh have requested the HHs from AP.

37) More stories hitting.
Houston Chronicle: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/5225533.html
Cardplayer: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...ecurity-breach

38) AP has started calling everyone in the POTRIPPER tournament and giving them $500 for accidentally releasing their personal information.
http://www.pocketfives.com/71799506-...BF161EF92.aspx

39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they said that they will clean up and go after the person (persons?) who are responsible..
[ QUOTE ]
So the bottom line is that he said all of the right things and, if he's telling the truth, then I believe that AP will come out of this an improved and effective organization. If he's feeding me a pile of crap then we're right back where we've been for the last month.

[/ QUOTE ]

40) As of Friday evening, cashouts from AP are still being processed.





Previous threads here:

We win?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12566388

updated 10/18
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12554106

10/17
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12541923

An Inside Job
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12523924



Mods, please keep updated.


GO!

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

First

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

Nicely.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they (original text snipped)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Nat ever said that.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

40) Cashouts still coming out of AP

info from me, think is important, include or w/e

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

wow so now AP is basically saying that Scott Tom and his "crew" were framed wtf

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

I think I agree with ike on this. We don't need a million zomg wtf where's my bucks threads at this point.

Actual information about cashouts/transfers etc going thru is probably important just like the reverse would be.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they give him the same story about a rogue low-level programmer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Nat ever said that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Relevant portion from Nat's phone call:

[ QUOTE ]
Among other things, he said that "geek" was not a correct term to be used here and if someone said that it was not what AP meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, what's more likely? An MSNBC reporter made up some wild story, or AP's throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks?

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

OP edited to accurately represent nat, and to include cashout info. I'm going to lose the ability to edit soon, so then its up to the powers that be.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

Heh - yeah that will happen. When it does you did your best. Thanks for stepping up. Having done a couple of the early ones I know it takes some effort.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they said that Stars has a great VIP program, among other things

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Nat ever said that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, I definitely didn't. The guy did not give me that story.

EDIT: FMP to make it say something else that the guy did not say to me

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

Sorry Nat.

I edited the op. Either everyone is going to have to edit their quotes of my mistake, or mods will have to edit it out.

N82 for mod.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they give him the same story about a rogue low-level programmer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Nat ever said that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Relevant portion from Nat's phone call:

[ QUOTE ]
Among other things, he said that "geek" was not a correct term to be used here and if someone said that it was not what AP meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, what's more likely? An MSNBC reporter made up some wild story, or AP's throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dudd,
I think things are pretty chaotic at AP right now, so I wouldn't blame them for saying and then retracting tiny things like that.

Edit: Also, thanks kurt.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they give him the same story about a rogue low-level programmer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Nat ever said that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, I definitely didn't. The guy did not give me that story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because it wouldn't be the best idea to feed a BS story to the person who holds alot of information about what really happened. Best to save the Die Hard spiel for non-poker media who will eat it up.

Next up: The head of Absolute IT department planted a "worm virus" that would tip all of the oil tankers in the world; but some teenage hackers broke the system to save the world and in the process got access to whole cards.

http://media.movieweb.com/galleries/...rs/poster1.jpg

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

So do we believe AP's current version of events (that it was some rogue employee and that no money was actually cashed out)?

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
So do we believe AP's current version of events (that it was some rogue employee and that no money was actually cashed out)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if you're asking me if I believe it...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhah

Ahem. That was a good one. No, I'm not buying it for a second. Seriously, they investigate for A MONTH and find nothing. We show them proof positive and 24 hours later, not only have they figured it all out, but they've FIXED IT.

I don't think so.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

Dont know where this should be inserted in the cliffsnotes timeline but it was on august22, before the potripper tourney, where I got 2nd to one of the cheating accounts, Payup, in the 1k mtt.

I laughed about Payups invincibility throughout the course of the tourney with inissint while on the phone but didnt think anything of it really until 2+2 started looking into the potripper tourney which i THINK occured later. I sent adanthar my hh for the payup tourney and he essentilly confirmed that the same shenanigans were involved and the payup account was also closed by AP.

sheets

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So do we believe AP's current version of events (that it was some rogue employee and that no money was actually cashed out)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if you're asking me if I believe it...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhah

Ahem. That was a good one. No, I'm not buying it for a second. Seriously, they investigate for A MONTH and find nothing. We show them proof positive and 24 hours later, not only have they figured it all out, but they've FIXED IT.

I don't think so.

[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, the guy on the phone admitted that a number of things needed to be changed. He never said that they fixed it. It's clear (at least to him) that they need to change.

**Once again, assuming he's not feeding me a bunch of lies

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

I think we should assume they are all feeding us lies until they prove otherwise.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont know where this should be inserted in the cliffsnotes timeline but it was on august22, before the potripper tourney, where I got 2nd to one of the cheating accounts, Payup, in the 1k mtt.

I laughed about Payups invincibility throughout the course of the tourney with inissint while on the phone but didnt think anything of it really until 2+2 started looking into the potripper tourney which i THINK occured later. I sent adanthar my hh for the payup tourney and he essentilly confirmed that the same shenanigans were involved and the payup account was also closed by AP.

sheets

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? I haven't heard about this tourney before.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think we should assume they are all feeding us lies until they prove otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft. Their current set is a great way to pick a patsy and kill the story asap.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont know where this should be inserted in the cliffsnotes timeline but it was on august22, before the potripper tourney, where I got 2nd to one of the cheating accounts, Payup, in the 1k mtt.

I laughed about Payups invincibility throughout the course of the tourney with inissint while on the phone but didnt think anything of it really until 2+2 started looking into the potripper tourney which i THINK occured later. I sent adanthar my hh for the payup tourney and he essentilly confirmed that the same shenanigans were involved and the payup account was also closed by AP.

sheets

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? I haven't heard about this tourney before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it just YOUR HH or was it like the leaked file with the entire tournaments?

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]

To be fair, the guy on the phone admitted that a number of things needed to be changed. He never said that they fixed it. It's clear (at least to him) that they need to change.

**Once again, assuming he's not feeding me a bunch of lies

[/ QUOTE ]

Quited from an AP rep in the MSN article:

[ QUOTE ]
“We have closed that security breach and we have identified a very serious issue internally as far as communications flow and we’re resolving that, ”

[/ QUOTE ]




Still waiting for that official statement, too.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

I'm glad Sheets posted that because that really has been the forgotten account thru this all.
It was mentioned very briefly each time it came up- and it wasn't scrutinized publicly like the Potripper win, or the obvious sessions by doubledrag.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

anyone got any contacts w/msn?

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyone got any contacts w/msn?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have the email of the guy who wrote the article.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

I think we need to chill on the speculation and demands until AP make this 'statement', stop second guessing them and showing them what may or may not fly.

It's got to be detrimental.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

large wire cashout on the 14th, processed on 16th, has not hit my bank account, called them and they said 3-5 business days so should get no later then tuesday

ike u doing wire cashouts? how long are they taking from when they are getting processed

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

I can't help but think that Absolute is gonna offer BIG hush money to some people on this site. It's their only way out.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad Sheets posted that because that really has been the forgotten account thru this all.
It was mentioned very briefly each time it came up- and it wasn't scrutinized publicly like the Potripper win, or the obvious sessions by doubledrag.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of the articles really mentioned the cheating with DOUBLEDRAG, even though POTRIPPER only won a fraction in the tournament compared to the high stakes limit and NL cheating.

In the OP it says Mark Seif is fine with letting his suspicious sessions be checked. I wouldn't trust any HH's AP sends regarding Seif. They can easily doctor the hands to look like nothing happened, and given how shady they've been during this whole mess, I would probably expect them to. The only hand histories I would trust their authenticity is when they would have no reason to lie (ie something that has already been proven).

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here are the new questions to ask AP:

1) If this was a rogue employee trying to prove a point that the site could be compromised, why not do it at play money instead of the highest real money games?

2) Furthermore, if he was looking to prove something, why not just do it ONCE and show his managers what he did?

3) How does chip dumping fit into all of this?

4) Why were 4 accounts necessary to "prove" this? Why did this reoccur over a period of nearly 4 weeks?

5) Why did the initial "conclusive" investigation totally discount the possibility of a superuser?

6) How could the hand histories have been actually looked at and concluded to not have been cheating, when even relative poker novices can see the POTRIPPER tournament and see something is wrong?

7) Who was actually registered to GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, DOUBLEDRAG, and POTRIPPER?

8) Explain the process in how Scott Tom was framed. How was it done so perfectly?

9) Why was a compromise only admitted AFTER 2+2 obtained too much smoking proof to continue the denial process?

[/ QUOTE ]

These questions need to be answered. ESPECIALLY #4 (at least to me). I really can't believe AP is spinning this as a rogue programmer trying to prove management wrong. It makes NO sense whatsoever.

I feel like I'm watching the OJ trial all over again. I really hope he doesn't get off this time.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't help but think that Absolute is gonna offer BIG hush money to some people on this site. It's their only way out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really a way out at this point I dont think.

Besides N82, Ad, and Dan seem to be above taking such money

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
...and we have identified a very serious issue internally as far as communications flow and we’re resolving that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This reveals to me what AP thinks of CrazyMarco's HH leak and this entire forum adventure: a "very serious issue...as far as communications flow". So "resolving [the issue]" probably means disposing of leaker and making an example of him for other employees... Is this the Bush Administration South?

Re: Lie Harder
 

http://www.adamrichardson.com/2p2/absolute-die-hard.jpg

Re: Lie Harder
 

Admo....seriously....how are you THAT good

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

wtf, sheets came out for this?

NOW, this is big [censored].

in for N82 for mod of something.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont know where this should be inserted in the cliffsnotes timeline but it was on august22, before the potripper tourney, where I got 2nd to one of the cheating accounts, Payup, in the 1k mtt.

I laughed about Payups invincibility throughout the course of the tourney with inissint while on the phone but didnt think anything of it really until 2+2 started looking into the potripper tourney which i THINK occured later. I sent adanthar my hh for the payup tourney and he essentilly confirmed that the same shenanigans were involved and the payup account was also closed by AP.

sheets

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? I haven't heard about this tourney before.

[/ QUOTE ]

I identified it from Sheets' and Grinder's (who finished fifth) hand histories and publicly mentioned Payup as the fifth account, but didn't bother making all but a few hands of that donkament public because I was getting tired of obvious superuser accounts by then and it was obvious to everyone anyhow.

Sample HH from the tournament: the guy plays 90/80 for 4 hours, then gets AhKh up against 77 on a 7xx 2 heart flop and check/calls.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
This reveals to me what AP thinks of CrazyMarco's HH leak and this entire forum adventure: a "very serious issue...as far as communications flow".

[/ QUOTE ]

They were experimenting with stocking their CS offices with their regular chimpanzees and new proboscis monkeys, it didn't work out.

Re: We haven\'t won yet: latest (10/19) cliff\'s notes on AP scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't help but think that Absolute is gonna offer BIG hush money to some people on this site. It's their only way out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really a way out at this point I dont think.

Besides N82, Ad, and Dan seem to be above taking such money

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd totally take a million dollars. Sorry guys [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Lie Harder
 

Really now, admo just took it to a whole new level. Again.