Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

The table is seeing about 3-4 to the flop, and there are a wide range of player skills at the table, no real super calling stations, but some rockish telegraphing older guys, specifically one insane old man with a Yankees hat.

I'm in the small blind with QhQs, 3 limpers (ep, mp, lp). No very specific reads on the limpers other than they are typically not playing complete garbage. I should have more reads here but I'm terrible at observing opponents.

I raise, get called by bb and limpers.

Flop(10sbs) JcTcXd.
Hero checks...

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

Standard. To protect your hand in this large pot you're going to have to hope to check raise, obviously leading out isnt going to do it. Hopefully MP or LP bets.

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

In these games i feel fine betting and three betting the flop and playing aggresively afterwards. I do not like your check

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

You are playing in an passive manner and maybe should'nt be playing these stakes. in Foxwoods games I am happy capping these flops and leading the turn. If i then get raised then I realize I am done.

Dave

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

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In these games i feel fine betting and three betting the flop and playing aggresively afterwards. I do not like your check

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You are playing in an passive manner and maybe should'nt be playing these stakes. in Foxwoods games I am happy capping these flops and leading the turn. If i then get raised then I realize I am done.


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dcb,

In situations like this your goal is trying to protect your hand, not playing for every bet you can squeeze in on the flop. You have a beginners mind frame of wanting to bet out, get raised, and then jam from whats usually slightly ahead. Getting in as many bets as possible like you're implying, is not the way to go here. In these situations you should be thinking "How can I best protect my hand". I'm assuming OP is thinking the same thing when he checks (knowing hes going to have to C-R to have any chance of knocking anyone out). Judging from your post you seem to just be thinking about how many bets you can get in. I'd only bet out here if I was confident for some reason that I was going to be raised by one of the first two players next to act.

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

Historonic, I respect your opinion. I have experience in the game mentioned and think that a check raise is a viable option. Given the circumstances of these games at Foxwoods 10-20 and 20-40 I find it strange to raise out of the blind and check the flop. From my experience mostly at the 20-40 game this move does not work very often. I do not have beginners logic here, but a more clear understanding of the games mentioned than you do. You cannot best protect your hand in many of these Foxwoods games and should be thinking more about how much money you should get into the pot while you are ahead and have the lead in the pot.

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

So whether you agree with the check or not, I have a few questions regarding this protection vs. value situation:

In these FW 10/20 games, how often is a c/r successful, given how people may be interpreting my check on the flop? In this game I think at least half of the table knows I'm going for the c/r. I guess the question becomes, will people have the hands that hit this flop AND want to bet them often enough for me to be successful? For the record, I don't think this check qualifies as playing "passively".

Also, is there something to be said for factoring in the amount of money I will often lose on the turn if I decide to bet/3bet and bloat the pot, and an equity-killer hits the turn? Said another way, I can bet/fold a medium sized pot on the turn, but I'd probably end up having to call down in a huge pot. Maybe its just an issue of variance, but it seems like the latter play, assuming it is correct, has a worse long term expectation, but you are forced to make it due to the size of the pot.

Also, if my hand is still looking good on the turn, obviously I have some shot at protecting in a smaller pot.

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

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You cannot best protect your hand in many of these Foxwoods games

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Does this mean you disagree with Miller's SSHE approach to pot protection in these particular games? What about a 2/4 game?

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

if you want to protect your hand go play nl. i like money so i bet.

Re: Foxwoods 10/20 Thursday night, QQ in SB
 

If the CR fails, then your turn bet will protect the pot, if it's still yours. See the KK hand in that damn Slanskey book for the full explaination.

Scott