50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

Gus is very very aggressive and often valuebets thin......he does also make some loose calls though. My turn call is possibly debatable also but I think his range is pretty much any 2 cards and I can also take the pot on some rivers even if he has a hand. Thoughts?

10k effective stacks

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $50/$100
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $350</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1050, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($1050, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $1050</font>, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($3150, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $3150</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $12600</font> (~5k to Gus)

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

bet that flop



you have top pair so just calling the river in not unreasonable. It's only a 5K raise, so it may get him to fold two small pair, I doubt much more than that. I guess you are representing 910 with spades as with stronger holdings you would have bet the flop.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

What's your image?

I dont like it. Like autobet said, most of the hands you could have here that are 2pair or better wouldve bet the flop or raised the turn. He's also getting a pretty decent price. The only thing that would make it good is if he has air here A LOT or you're so nitty he's bet/folding the river a lot. Again, don't like it.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

I like it if you had two pair (seeing as he bets and calls thin) but this is basically a pure bluff. And ew.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

I dont' like it.

This looks like the nuts or a pure bluff. From Gus' perspective, its hard to put you on a hand as you are now repping T9. But you need to have a hand w T9 that was NOT strong enough to bet the flop (so not 9TJ, 889T, 89TQ, etc), but yet strong enough to call on the turn (so wheel draws, spade draws, etc are possible), yet not raise the turn so no slowplayed monsters like QQ. Most decent made hands on the river like QJ, JJ etc. have good showdown value and call the river (if they don't fold).

so if gus is a loose caller and good hand reader then I think you're in trouble here since he's getting 3:1, and if he DID fold, then i think its likely he was on a bluff himself since you looked weak

What other hands would you play like this?

-g

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

He calls loose and you're firing bluffs at him? Very counterintuitive IMO. I think if you want to take this away from him then the flop was the time to bet out and take it down

From his point you've played pretty weak and he's got 3:1 with two pair or better. He's gonna call.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

To echo the majority of previous sentiments, there is no reason for this river bluff. Either your Queen is good and a call would have sufficed or you're bluffing your way into top 2-esque holdings or possibly even the nut str8 given his generally loose, read-heavy play. I think 10/9 is a legitimate threat here given his check on the flop that could indicate an unwillingness to bluff into 3-way action, then the feeler bet on the turn with the blank deuce and a shot at the 4-outer nuts, and then the obvious value bet on the river. I wouldn't be particularly surprised to see him pop you back for the pot here.
*Im new to the forum by the way, hello to the regular posters.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

since he valuebets thin alot i don't think just calling is very good.....anyway I guess the consensus is that this sucks, and I guess I have to concede since he called with J8, 2nd and 3rd pair...still don't see how he calls there since I pull that without T9 maybe 10% of the time..

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
since he valuebets thin alot i don't think just calling is very good.....anyway I guess the consensus is that this sucks, and I guess I have to concede since he called with J8, 2nd and 3rd pair...still don't see how he calls there since I pull that without T9 maybe 10% of the time..

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, which is why it is not whether to raise or call here, the question is to raise or fold ( fold &gt; raising &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; calling)

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since he valuebets thin alot i don't think just calling is very good.....anyway I guess the consensus is that this sucks, and I guess I have to concede since he called with J8, 2nd and 3rd pair...still don't see how he calls there since I pull that without T9 maybe 10% of the time..

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, which is why it is not whether to raise or call here, the question is to raise or fold ( fold &gt; raising &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; calling)

[/ QUOTE ]

More like fold&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;raise&gt;&gt;c all

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
still don't see how he calls there since I pull that without T9 maybe 10% of the time..

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you don't have T9 there?

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

and because of the results of 1 hand you're saying I don't have T9 way more than a bluff? I'm confused

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
and because of the results of 1 hand you're saying I don't have T9 way more than a bluff? I'm confused

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying there very few hands that you would've played the way you did in this hand and end up having T9.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
since he valuebets thin alot i don't think just calling is very good.....anyway I guess the consensus is that this sucks, and I guess I have to concede since he called with J8, 2nd and 3rd pair...still don't see how he calls there since I pull that without T9 maybe 10% of the time..

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll bet Gus has lots of experience with guys playing back light at him due to his style, so has many data points with which to decide when someone is bluffing him.

but i'll ask again, what other T9 hands do you play this way? And what % of your range of T9 hands does that comprise?

-g

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

T98 with any spades, AT9 with nut draw, QT9 with a junk 4th card, T9xx with spades possibly even

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

I doubt he liked getting raised in this spot, but he is getting 3-1 to call so he only needs to win 1 in 4.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
since he valuebets thin alot i don't think just calling is very good.....anyway I guess the consensus is that this sucks, and I guess I have to concede since he called with J8, 2nd and 3rd pair...still don't see how he calls there since I pull that without T9 maybe 10% of the time..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't hate this bluff as much as others, as you should be credibly representing 9T. However, I don't think you should do it too much against Gus -- not just because he "calls light," but because he's very smart about the game theory involved here, and knows that he's going to have to call you a reasonable % of the time with 2 pair so that you don't run over him.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

I think raising here is horrendous.

Fold &gt; Call &gt; Raise

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

How light do you valuepush, do you ever slowplay.

If u have 910 or nothing here its hard to get it work

I know Gus valuebet light, and guess is good enough to call enough with 2 pairs since he know he have to when betting light.

- B

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

What I don't get is why you don't just bet the flop here. It's an uncoordinated board and you have a piece. Why put yourself in the position of trying to take your junk pair to showdown when you can just take it down on the flop when no one's likely to have anything.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

His lack of flop bet likely had something to do with it never folding a better hand, never getting called by worse, real chance of c/r bluff on this board etc.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

What kind of flop did you expect to bet? AAA or AAQ?

That was an auto-bet flop. No bet = say byebye to the pot. Raising the river = say byebye to a good portion of your stack.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

This play doesn't have to work too often to make it a successfull play. If someone value bets thin, especially in Omaha, you should be re- raising a lot of rivers as bluffs.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
This play doesn't have to work too often to make it a successfull play. If someone value bets thin, especially in Omaha, you should be re- raising a lot of rivers as bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That bit of advice is exactly what the LAG player who value-bets thin is looking for. A good player, which we can assume Gus is, will adjust to being raised on the river multiple times and then make you pay for it by tightening up. Bluff raises on the river, though oftentimes effective, should be used VERY sparingly.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This play doesn't have to work too often to make it a successfull play. If someone value bets thin, especially in Omaha, you should be re- raising a lot of rivers as bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That bit of advice is exactly what the LAG player who value-bets thin is looking for. A good player, which we can assume Gus is, will adjust to being raised on the river multiple times and then make you pay for it by tightening up. Bluff raises on the river, though oftentimes effective, should be used VERY sparingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its probably a good thing if you make Gus adjust by tightening up on the river.

So it looks like you agree with me. Once Gus adjusts his river betting frequency you can make the adjustments by river reraise bluffing less.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

Then when you river re-rasie bluff less, the cycle starts all over again. Its not as if a good player makes one adjustment per session then calls it quits afterwards. I think the best way to deal with a player like Gus is to just tighten up with calling/raising hands post-flop so you don't have to make these sorts of decisions on the river.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then when you river re-rasie bluff less, the cycle starts all over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to game theory.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

Wouldn't you agree the higher the frequency somebody bets the river, the higher the frequency you should bluff raise these bets ceteris paribus.

And even if the player was very good at hand reading I don't think this would change much.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the worst way to deal with a player like Gus is to just tighten up with calling/raising hands post-flop so you get run over

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone value bets thin, especially in Omaha, you should be re- raising a lot of rivers as bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, not sure I completely agree. If he bets thin but won't fold, then bluffing doesn't make much sense for example. Seems like if all your know for sure is "value bets thin" then all you can say for sure is "widen your calling range". i might argue you should in fact bluff a narrower range but valuebet a wider one vs. a thin betting/heavy calling guy like Gus

And my math says his bluffraise needs to work 2 times in 3 to be profitable in this instance which the nit in me would characterize as more than "too often"

-g

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

gergery - if he bets thin but wont fold then you should be valueraising him thin enough to be able to bluff raise more. If he never folds, then obv dont bluff, and he will be busto soon.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then when you river re-rasie bluff less, the cycle starts all over again. Its not as if a good player makes one adjustment per session then calls it quits afterwards. I think the best way to deal with a player like Gus is to just tighten up with calling/raising hands post-flop so you don't have to make these sorts of decisions on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. I knew Gordo16 sounded familiar.

$2000 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, December 01, 18:16:14 EDT 2005
Table Table 66082 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 10: BLdSWtTRs ( $3711 )
Seat 1: blohan ( $1769 )
Seat 6: gordo16 ( $2000 )
Seat 2: ih8luckyfish ( $2000 )
blohan posts small blind [$10].
ih8luckyfish posts big blind [$20].
gordo16 posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BLdSWtTRs [ Ah Ts ]
gordo16 checks.
&gt;You have options at Table 69167 (No DP) Table!.
BLdSWtTRs raises [$90].
blohan folds.
ih8luckyfish folds.
&gt;You have options at Table 66919 (No DP) Table!.
gordo16 calls [$70].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, Ks, Kd ]
gordo16 checks.
&gt;You have options at Table 69167 (No DP) Table!.
BLdSWtTRs bets [$115].
gordo16 raises [$230].
&gt;You have options at Table 69167 (No DP) Table!.
BLdSWtTRs calls [$115].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
gordo16 bets [$300].
&gt;You have options at Table 66919 (No DP) Table!.
BLdSWtTRs raises [$725].
gordo16 is all-In.
&gt;You have options at Table 69167 (No DP) Table!.
&gt;You have options at Table 66919 (No DP) Table!.
&gt;You have options at Table 69167 (No DP) Table!.
BLdSWtTRs calls [$955].
** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
BLdSWtTRs shows [ Ah, Ts ] a pair of kings.
gordo16 shows [ Jc, 9d ] two pairs, kings and jacks.
gordo16 wins $4028 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and jacks.
ladgez has joined the table.
&gt;You have options at Table 69167 (No DP) Table!.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($1769)
BB ($2000)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($2000)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($3711)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10. UTG posts a blind of $20.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $90</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $70.

Flop: ($210) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $115</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $230</font>, Hero calls $115.

Turn: ($670) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $725</font>, UTG calls $1380 (All-In), Hero calls $955.

River: ($4030) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $4030
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: $4030, between UTG and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="#FFFFFF">Pot won by UTG ($4030).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has Jc 9d (two pair, kings and jacks).
Hero has Ah Ts (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins $4030. </font>


***** Hand History for Game 3119290004 *****
$2000 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, November 30, 02:23:41 EDT 2005
Table Table 69199 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: gordo16 ( $4342 )
Seat 5: Uninterested ( $2482.50 )
Seat 10: BLdSWtTRs ( $3118.50 )
Seat 4: amelie22 ( $1980 )
amelie22 posts small blind [$10].
Uninterested posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BLdSWtTRs [ Ks Kd ]
&gt;You have options at Table 66082 (No DP) Table!.
BLdSWtTRs raises [$72].
gordo16 calls [$72].
amelie22 folds.
Uninterested folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, 2s, 7c ]
BLdSWtTRs bets [$155].
&gt;You have options at Table 65190 (No DP) Table!.
gordo16 calls [$155].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
&gt;You have options at Table 66082 (No DP) Table!.
BLdSWtTRs checks.
gordo16 bets [$165].
BLdSWtTRs raises [$665].
gordo16 is all-In.
BLdSWtTRs is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
BLdSWtTRs shows [ Ks, Kd ] a pair of kings.
gordo16 shows [ 5c, Qc ] two pairs, queens and fives.
&gt;You have options at Table 66082 (No DP) Table!.
gordo16 wins $1223.50 from side pot #1 with two pairs, queens and fives.
gordo16 wins $6265 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and fives.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Button ($4342)</font>
SB ($1980)
BB ($2482.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($3118.50)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $72</font>, Button calls $72, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($174) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $155</font>, Button calls $155.

Turn: ($484) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $165</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $665</font>, Button calls $3950 (All-In), Hero calls $2226.50 (All-In).

River: ($7490.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $7490.50
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: $6267, between Button and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="#FFFFFF">Pot won by Button ($6267).</font>
<font color="#009B00">Pot 2: $1223.50, returned to Button.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
Button has 5c Qc (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: Button wins $7490.50. </font>

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

What can I say, I'm an Omaha player that likes to dabble in Hold Em. Also, congrats on digging up hand histories from what must have been at least a year and a half ago. I'm not sure the first hand is exactly a credit to your fantastic play though; I remember it well and thought then, and still do now, that you played it awfully the whole way through.

As far as getting run over by Gus by tightening up post-flop, sure, that holds true if you are playing Gus heads up. However, the game is usually going to be at least 4 or 5 handed. That being said, if Gus is the pre-flop raiser, then just limit the selection post-flop since you can usually assume he is going to bet out in position. I don't feel like that is exactly getting run over.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, congrats on digging up hand histories from what must have been at least a year and a half ago. I'm not sure the first hand is exactly a credit to your fantastic play though; I remember it well and thought then, and still do now, that you played it awfully the whole way through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, what? The guy read you perfectly in hand 1 and you got lucky, and in hand 2 you needed runner runner and put all your money in drawing to 5 outs, and you're saying he played them badly?

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
What can I say, I'm an Omaha player that likes to dabble in Hold Em. Also, congrats on digging up hand histories from what must have been at least a year and a half ago. I'm not sure the first hand is exactly a credit to your fantastic play though; I remember it well and thought then, and still do now, that you played it awfully the whole way through.


[/ QUOTE ]

When someone raises that turn and calls an all in, its likely they are terrible and will soon be broke. When that same player is thriving a year later, having made a couple of million, I think you should give him credit for making an amazing play, he obviously made a great great read and call and owned you. Second hand I'm not sure wtf you were doing. Both hands look like BlD had monkey tilted you with his aggressive play, and made some very nice adjustements and totally outplayed you, and you could be more gracious.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

LOL @ GORDO

i hope you keep playing 10/20 holdem for a long time

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

Oh man, I love how this forum immediately lived up to its great reputation for needless character attacks. Great job guys. Wow, I played two hands poorly when I first started playing Hold'Em. So shoot me.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

results?

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh man, I love how this forum immediately lived up to its great reputation for needless character attacks. Great job guys. Wow, I played two hands poorly when I first started playing Hold'Em. So shoot me.

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one gives a cr*p about that, it's the fact that you had the audacity to bemoan the fact that he read you like an open book and pass it off as 'bad play'.

Re: 50/100 river bluff raise vs Gus Hansen
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh man, I love how this forum immediately lived up to its great reputation for needless character attacks. Great job guys. Wow, I played two hands poorly when I first started playing Hold'Em. So shoot me.

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one gives a cr*p about that, it's the fact that you had the audacity to bemoan the fact that he read you like an open book and pass it off as 'bad play'.

[/ QUOTE ]