Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

First let me say that I've been playing professional Poker for about 3 years playing $2 -$5 NL in live casinos. Lately, for about 3 sessions I've been on a loosing streak which is the longest I've gone in 3 years. I had a friend who makes around $50,000 a year playing $2-$5 sit with me to find any problems in my game. He brought up one hand. I'm at a table with mostly calling stations and one aggressive maniac who raises every other pot etc etc. I get 5 limpers and I'm in the small blind with 89S so of course I elect to play. Flop comes out 934 with to diamonds. There was $25 in the pot and with two draws and 5 people I elected to punish the chasing calling stations and bet the pot $25. Of course everyone calls. The turn is a off 5, I bet again and everyone calls. The river is another off 5 and I check. Maniac bets $100 and calling station calls the $100, knowing I'm beat by seeing tells I fold. Maniac flips over 10 2 diamonds for busted flush draw and calling station flips over 5 2 offsuit hitting runner runner trips after his straight draw failed to improve. My pro friend said that most players are bad and will chase every draw and even over cards. Therefor, with 4 other people in the pot calling, with two draws I'm actually a favorite to loose than I will win, so betting to protect my hand will actually cause me to loose more in the long run. He said I needed to just check and if someone bets, check raise big to scare the draws away and go heads up. Or, if everyone checked behind me and I get a non-scary card on 4th, I can bet now and will be a favorite to win and not have a lot of money invested. I thought this was crazy that I have the best hand on the flop, and knowing that I will get called I should not bet. But he is a pro and makes far more money than anyone at the casino. Any thoughts?

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

You need to read all of his advice.

He's saying that if on the flop there are two big draws (straight and flush in your example), and four people call, it's likely that both draws are being chased. The outs for both together make you a significant dog (if it's both the low cards that are diamonds, they have 15 outs; if it the 9 is a diamond, they have 16). Worse still, even if you bet the pot, you will sometimes have another caller, with OCs, making as many as 22 outs against your hand.

Then he's saying that betting out will not make them fold, so a bet is not protecting your hand. Each will be wrong to call, and you have more equity than either one, but you are a dog to both together. It's called "schooling". You beat each fish, but you cannot beat the school of them.

I'm guessing you haven't played much limit. If you had, you'd be used to this sort of concept. You'd check, let the maniac bet, and put in a raise to fold out other players. If maniac's not in LP, you could just hope button will bet if it's checked to him. But your pro is right, I think. Betting out will never protect your hand against a fishy table on this kind of flop.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

Worse advice I have ever heard. He must be running real good if he makes 50K per year playing 2/5 nl poker. Tell me, when do you ever want a worse hand than yours to fold. He is correct about one thing, against two players your hand is less likely to win than against one of them, however the pots you do win be be much larger. This actually has a name,it is called "schooling" but is normally reserved for many more oponnents in the hand against you than just two.

This is only a variation of: do you want anyone to fold to your preflop raise when you have pocket aces?



Jimbo

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

I think the Morton's theorem applys here, but don't remember how you should play this. Google Morthon's Theorem and Implicit Collusion.
Regards ...

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

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I think the Morton's theorem applys here, but don't remember how you should play this. Google Morthon's Theorem and Implicit Collusion.
Regards ...

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If I recall his theroy correctly it specifies just the opposite, you should bet/eaise early. Only that you are bound to lose with more players in the pot than less when you don't have the mortal nuts, it wasn't exactly earth shattering information when I first read it years ago on RGP.

Linky

Jimbo

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

Morton's theorem is that you make more money if your opponents fold worse hands.

Your link doesn't work.

The thing is, the pro is telling OP to try to check/raise, not to avoid betting. In this instance, with a maniac in the pot, he is likely to get the opportunity.

And there were, I think, four other people in the pot, not two.

Aside from those details, your post was fine.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

The play is so bad in low stakes live NL games that it doesn't take great skills to win enough to make a living. It takes putting in the hours.

Your friend's advice was terrible. There are some correct pieces, but there were deep misconceptions built in, too, and he missed some important ideas.

Not all top pairs are created equal. Lower top pairs are much weaker than top pairs of aces or kings. For example, suppose you are up against a flush draw. If you have paired the board's ace, your opponent probably has 9 outs. If you have paired the board's top card which is a nine, it is likely that your opponent has 12 or 15 outs with a flush draw and overcards, and there tend to be more possible straight draws, so no card is safe.

Obviously, with 98 on a 943 board, your kicker isn't great, either. It's hard for someone to have a worse kicker than yours.

Position matters a lot. You should bet a lot more frequently when you have position. If your hand will win at showdown 1/3 of the time, and you will get two callers, then you generally expect to get more than 1/3 of the pot if you are in position, and less than 1/3 of the pot if you are out of position, so making the pot bigger is not neutral. It's good in position, and bad out of position.

So, your hand is not very strong and you have an information disadvantage. That is part of why it is reasonable to check/call or check/fold on this flop.

With a stronger hand, or in position, it may be a good idea to bet, even if there are a lot of draws and you won't get them to fold. If you get three callers, par is to win 25% of the time. You should not regret betting if you win 40% of the time, even though some uniformed people will say you are a favorite to lose. It is more reasonable to say that you are a favorite any time you win more than par. The amount you win by betting more than makes up for the small losses most of the time. You will regret checking if someone who would have folded to a bet wins because you gave a free card.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

89s on a 934 ds board without a backdoor draw and 5 people, and you're out of position?

I usually c/f this.

For multiple reasons, in live play it's very possible that you'll have several of the more tight players limping in with a small overpair such as TT-JJ, you have about the weakest kicker possible with a 9, beating only 69/79 and losing to T9, J9, Q9, K9, A9 all of which are far more likely. You're TP is very vulnerable, and most FD's with 2 over's, or a pair and FD are ahead of you since your kicker doesn't block well. Meaning, you're 8 isn't going to keep QJs from beating you if a Q or a J come, whereas if you had Q9 or J9 it would.

...and then you are out of position for the entire hand, and if you bet you are likely to bloat the pot with very, very marginal holding.

C/Ring here is absolutely ridiculously retarded as well. You are turning your hand into a bluff, and it's so, so bad. Your friend sucks at poker, and you probably do as well for not immediately recognizing that he's an idiot.

Anyway, follow his advice. "C/R big" with TP to get it heads-up, just don't be surprised when you are shipping your stack across the table, because MP had you drawing to runner-runner because he flopped a set on your ass.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

"Top Pairs' are not created equal. You have a pair of 9s with no kicker out of position with 5 people in the hand. You aren't slowplaying, you are facing reality.

Your friends advice was right, but yours/his explanation of why you should check was very wrong.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

pzhon and wooly summed it up.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

Check raise is the correct play in LIMIT holdem, no? Forces the field of drawing hands to call 2 cold.

In any event, this is a great topic, a follow on question I have for NO LIMIT is in those instances where you have position, the advice is to bet but what if there is a bet to you? Are we raising, calling, folding? Calling can't be right because now the chasers may be getting the right price. Are we back to folding as we would do out of position? And just to be clear, I am asking in the context of the original post (weak top pair, drawy board, NL, and multiple villains).

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

I think the main thing you have to realise here is that the players are calling stations!!!! Remember? Means you can happily check-fold this one and bet when you have a more secure hand.

As for your question, cjk73, its important to realise that when someone bets to you, you no longer have effective position. The guy to the right of the better has position. It depends on how many players are on your left between you and the better, how much the player bet, how often you've seen them bet into a multiway pot when there are draws on etc etc. The more players left to act the more you're gonna want to get outta there.

I think you're going to have to be more specific.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

Fair enough, and I think your point about relative (vs absolute) position answers it. But for sake of clarity, if you are 5th to act of five players and player 2 bets, and 3 and 4 call, you still have absolute position and "pretty good" relative position. Are we raising? Calling still seems weakish but raising has less fold equity then when we have no callers yet. Finally folding can't be right given the pot size.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

In a multi-way, unraised pot, TPWK as first to act is a hand with too much in the way of reverse implied odds to play strongly, even if you suspect others behind you might be drawing.

I usually c/f. In fact, I'd be more inclined to bet an open ended straight draw for the size of a small pot here than TPWK because (1) if no body has anything (unlikely, but possible), I'll win, and (2) if I get callers and hit my straight, then I now have a big pot with guys who will probably call another (much bigger) bet on the turn, and maybe even on call an all-in on the river (with two-pair or a lower straight, etc).

But with TPWK in a spot like this, I just c/f. If the hand is checked around the the turn is a blank, I'll fire there to pick up the orphaned pot with top pair.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

I agree with everything woolygimp has said. The specific example you have givin is a very marginal situation in a 5-6way pot with a bunch of loose passive fish and you'll never know where your at. That being said, in general, your friend is giving you bad advice. In the type of game your playing I would always lead out with my strong hands and bet them the whole way. In most cases you would rather get called in a few spots then check raising and taking it down right there. This assumes your bet sizing is correct.

On a side note- 3 years of pro poker and 3 losing sessions in a row is the worst downswing you've had?? I'd say you should just keep doing whatever you're doing.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

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On a side note- 3 years of pro poker and 3 losing sessions in a row is the worst downswing you've had?? I'd say you should just keep doing whatever you're doing.

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I was about to say the same thing.

This situation is c/f for me almost 100% of the time.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

After looking at everyone's post it seems the majority feel I should bet out here, knowing that I'm going to get called. My thoughts were (following Hellmuth's book) that betting here give me information on where I stand. If a good player calls a pot size bet, I usual put him on top pair better kicker and he would prob never limp with 1010 or jj. He could have slow played Aces but not likely. If a chaser/calling station is calling he either has a draw or middle pair etc. At this table the players were calling 6 times the blinds raises with everything suited, 26Clubs, 310Diamonds, 25 offsuit, etc. I'm serious here guys.

As far as my loosing streak being 3 in a row. I play as my part-time job on the weekends and my friend plays everyday professionally. I seem to have a tight/aggressive style while he plays a little looser and limps in with garbage hands to "bust" someone. The only hands I limp in with are in late position and suited connectors, small pairs, and suited aces. He will be play 2 5 off on the button. I seem to bet and raise more and he will let players bet into him as he calls more. I'm thinking of adapting his style but I'm not for sure. He is also the best at reading tells that I've ever seen.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

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After looking at everyone's post it seems the majority feel I should bet out here, knowing that I'm going to get called.

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Did you read the same thread I did? I don't recall anyone saying to bet out, while several people said to check and fold. People offered quite a few hypothetical situations in which it would be right to bet when there might be draws, but a low TPWK out of position against several players was not one of them.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

you've been playing professionally for 3 years at 2/5NL, and you're posting in a forum asking strangers with (as far as you know) zero credentials for advice on how to play top pair.


something isnt right there.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

you can punish maniac by check-raising, but don't blow up the pot OOP with such a weak hand on the flop, or else you'll find yourself having to fold on the river like you did.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

[ QUOTE ]
you've been playing professionally for 3 years at 2/5NL, and you're posting in a forum asking strangers with (as far as you know) zero credentials for advice on how to play top pair.


Your probably right. I should not be coming here for advice. But I like to see how other people see it. Being pro and not trying improve is the worst thing you can do. You should always be trying to improve and evaluate your play and not get a big head like "Oh here come Jon to take all our money" and get a big head. I'm very critical of every play not only I lose, but even when I win a hand I ask myself "did I play this for maximum value or could I have gotten more money?" At any rate my last sessions were winning sessions, $350 & $600 respectively so I'm finally out of my slump. Thanks for the thoughts guys.

something isnt right there.

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Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

move all in on the flop, top pair weak kicker is a very strong hand and should be protected.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

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On a side note- 3 years of pro poker and 3 losing sessions in a row is the worst downswing you've had?? I'd say you should just keep doing whatever you're doing.

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I was about to say the same thing.

This situation is c/f for me almost 100% of the time.

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You guys don't actually believe OP when he says his longest losing session is 3 do you?

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

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Worse advice I have ever heard. He must be running real good if he makes 50K per year playing 2/5 nl poker. Tell me, when do you ever want a worse hand than yours to fold. He is correct about one thing, against two players your hand is less likely to win than against one of them, however the pots you do win be be much larger. This actually has a name,it is called "schooling" but is normally reserved for many more oponnents in the hand against you than just two.

This is only a variation of: do you want anyone to fold to your preflop raise when you have pocket aces?



Jimbo

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Jimbo, OP said 5 callers to the flop bet. This is a school. The previous post was just expanding the OP example to be inclusive of even fewer players.

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

[ QUOTE ]
......I get 5 limpers and I'm in the small blind with 89S so of course I elect to play. Flop comes out 934 with to diamonds. There was $25 in the pot and with two draws and 5 people I elected to punish the chasing calling stations and bet the pot $25. Of course everyone calls. The turn is a off 5, I bet again and everyone calls. The river is another off 5 and I check...........

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I'm thinking that you forgot to think about why you entered the pot to begin with. You had a plan maybe? I'm thinking it was not to play a big pot with a top pair of 9's against a large field of players. You played it to hit 2 pair or better or a straight that was hidden so you could let mister maniac bluff off his chips to you then stick him in the side with a big raise on the end. You had likely been sitting there a long time trying to do that. The hand did not work out that way from the very beginning yet you persisted with it.

I think most of the time you need to keep in mind why you entered the pot to begin with. Obviously adjustments are required from time to time however I think players adjust and keep on with a hand like this way too often.

Dave

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had a friend who makes around $50,000 a year playing $2-$5 ... he is a pro and makes far more money than anyone at the casino.

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"Steve Wynn 2-5 no limit..."
"Steve Wynn 2-5 no limit?"
"Last call. Steve Wynn 2-5 no limit?"
"Bobby Baldwin 2-5 no limit?"

Re: Poker Pro: Almost always slow play top pair????
 

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...and then you are out of position for the entire hand, and if you bet you are likely to bloat the pot with very, very marginal holding.


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