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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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As the old saying goes “justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done” [/ QUOTE ] Good choice of quotes. It nicely sums up the complaint that most people in this thread have with the way FTP conducts business. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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[ QUOTE ] If they were a PR firm like Stars, they would have refunded the money and gone out of their way to avoid a situation like this in the first place (including appeasing the cheaters or giving them a warning first so they can hide what they're doing). This whole situation is going to cost them more than 50K in business and they knew that from the start, but stuck to their guns. [/ QUOTE ] Stars just confiscated $1.2M so they don't exactly refund money to cheaters. [/ QUOTE ] I missed that post first time through - Phil53 (or whatever) youre really really ignorant. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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[ QUOTE ] If they were a PR firm like Stars, they would have refunded the money and gone out of their way to avoid a situation like this in the first place (including appeasing the cheaters or giving them a warning first so they can hide what they're doing). This whole situation is going to cost them more than 50K in business and they knew that from the start, but stuck to their guns. [/ QUOTE ] Stars just confiscated $1.2M so they don't exactly refund money to cheaters. [/ QUOTE ] Did I miss something? Link please. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
that thread was taken down from the NVG forum due to lawyers request or something. Although Mat Sklansky didn't make it clear WHOSE lawyers.
There is an article in cardplayer about it now I believe although it might not be in the online edition yet. In short, the guy who won the WCOOP championship for $1.2 million was deemed to be playing more than one account so was stripped of his winnings and everyone was moved up one place. I'm not even sure if we're allowed to say even that much on 2+2 since they took down a different thread about it. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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[ QUOTE ] I think you might overestimate how easy something like a California court hearing on this matter would be. FT isn't in the U.S. I don't know how possible it is but it doesn't seem terribly realistic. Hopefully her lawyer may have an idea or two. [/ QUOTE ] the only issue here is the legality of poker. It would be fairly easy to serve FT...as for collecting, it depends on where they have their assets. There are plenty of procedures in place to collect on foreign judgments in most countries. Maybe FT should move all their assets to N. Korea to become judgment-proof against sillysal [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I agree. FT can be easily served, and they are doing business in every state, if other states jurisdictional requirments are the same as the 12-15 I am familiar with. If they choose not to defend, they would be defaulted. The biggest issue is probably whether she is in a state where internet poker is illegal. I for one would love to see legal action, including a trial. You won't get to just send a terse e-mail and take $47K. But I'm sure crazy mike would make a good witness. Its not like he's been wrong, repeatedly, and appeared to have ulterior motives at times, right? |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
Oh yeah I heard about that, but I was sure I also read that they were distributing the money to all the other players in that tournament. It certainly seems uncharacteristic of PokerStars to simply keep it.
Sorry about going off-topic. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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[ QUOTE ] Even if pokergirl z cheated, which i dont believe... FT's rep getting rapęd all over the place < 47k $. [x] Unfreeze the mobniez. [/ QUOTE ] Doesn't this just speak to their integrity? If they were a PR firm like Stars, they would have refunded the money and gone out of their way to avoid a situation like this in the first place (including appeasing the cheaters or giving them a warning first so they can hide what they're doing). This whole situation is going to cost them more than 50K in business and they knew that from the start, but stuck to their guns. The customer service side of things could be handled a lot better - they definitely need to say what they're investigating. Other companies do it and it's unacceptable that they stonewall completely. [/ QUOTE ] Wow I'm shocked and dismayed someone responded positively to kamikazes absolutely retarded comments. We don't have any facts, and fulltilt has conducted a presumably extensive 3 week investigation, and concluded she was guilty of botting. Yup! We should just ask full tilt to give her money back to a possible cheater and let the victims feel the burn, just because we dont like how they explain things related to their investigation to someone they think used a bot to steal money from them. Sorry for the runon sentence. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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Oh yeah I heard about that, but I was sure I also read that they were distributing the money to all the other players in that tournament. It certainly seems uncharacteristic of PokerStars to simply keep it. Sorry about going off-topic. [/ QUOTE ] in that regard that is exactly what is happening here. Stars redistributed the money that the WCOOP player had confiscated. FT says they are going to redistribute the $47k that they confiscated from sillysal to the affected players. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
Oooooooooooooohhhhhhhh, whoops, I misread mbpoker's post:
[ QUOTE ] Stars just confiscated $1.2M so they don't exactly refund money to cheaters. [/ QUOTE ] I read it as they don't refund money to those who were cheated. That's why I was wondering "WTF". |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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FT says they are going to redistribute the $47k that they confiscated from sillysal to the affected players. [/ QUOTE ] Did I miss this? I didn't notice this. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
It's in the letter they sent her.
" Your Full Tilt Poker account will remain permanently closed and the remaining funds will be used to reimburse the victims of your use of automated artificial intelligence software. You are no longer welcome to play at Full Tilt Poker. Regards, Jeremy E Security and Fraud Full Tilt Poker " |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
Morning all,
I just wanted to clarify that those of us who are unhappy with FTP's handling of this matter obviously support their efforts to crack down on cheating. Cheating obviously hurts us all, and we obviously think it should be stopped. However, at the same time, we think that even <u>accused</u> cheaters deserve a right to defend themselves against the allegations. If our society lets murderers see the evidence against them (despite the possible theoretical advantage to other would-be murderers from seeing how they were caught) then surely the same can apply to online poker players. As the case of TeddyFBI's mum demonstrated, online poker operators are not infallible. They make mistakes - and $47k makes a big difference to Sillysal's life, so let's remember that. P.S. Gehrig suggests, in the BBV thread on this, that the evidence against Sillysal is pretty damning. That may be the case - but it wouldn't change my view one bit. It's not possible to only have a fair process for innocent people, since someone's guilt needs to determined as a result of the fair process, not prior to. On that note, if Gehrig - as a mere dataminer/observer - was able to figure out the evidence (as he suggests) then surely there is no secret issue involved here. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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On that note, if Gehrig - as a mere dataminer/observer - was able to figure out the evidence (as he suggests) then surely there is no secret issue involved here. [/ QUOTE ] i didnt elaborate on what i know and i'm not going to |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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i didnt elaborate on what i know and i'm not going to [/ QUOTE ] Why? |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
I don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate.
I also don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate about why he won't elaborate. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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I don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate. I also don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate about why he won't elaborate. [/ QUOTE ] If Gehrig won't elaborate because of an arrangement with FTP, then he only needs to say that. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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I don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate. I also don't think he will elaborate on why he won't elaborate about why he won't elaborate. [/ QUOTE ] Nth level elaboration. ELABROLEVELED!!!!!! |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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If Gehrig won't elaborate because of an arrangement with FTP, then he only needs to say that. [/ QUOTE ] More than likely it's b/c Crazy Mike gave him information under the condition it stay private. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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[ QUOTE ] Uh Silly Sal. hello Silly Sal. Send us some evidence please. Should be on your computer. [/ QUOTE ] I will post hand histories , I will contact the Kahnawake Gaming Commision. I have contacted 2 Lawyers, and I have made calls to involve the media. I have contacted the 4 moderators that were on staff at the time I received the letter from FTP. I will do everything in my power and I will post everything I do to keep you all in the loop. [/ QUOTE ] No HH yet. Could you take a minute to explain why? |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
Here is an extract from the information FTP sent me. (FTP and sillysal have given me permission to post it.)
FTP consider it to be very important to their case against sillysal: Pokergirl z 172,075 hands Flop 59% Turn 43% River 36% grego777 85,403 hands Flop 60% Turn 44% River 36% Daurgman 62,148 hands Flop 61% Turn 45% River 36% * Pokergirl z Pre-flop % Fold 20 Call 21 Check 3 Bet 55 grego777 Pre-flop % Fold 21 Call 22 Check 3 Bet 54 Daurgman Pre-flop % Fold 21 Call 22 Check 2 Bet 55 * Pokergirl z Flop % Fold 8 Call 27 Check 20 Bet 45 grego777 Flop % Fold 8 Call 27 Check 20 Bet 45 Daurgman Flop % Fold 7 Call 24 Check 22 Bet 47 * Pokergirl z Turn % Fold 7 Call 27 Check 38 Bet 28 grego777 Turn % Fold 7 Call 26 Check 38 Bet 29 Daurgman Turn % Fold 8 Call 25 Check 30 Bet 37 * Pokergirl z River % Fold 11 Call 24 Check 32 Bet 33 grego777 River % Fold 11 Call 23 Check 31 Bet 34 Daurgman River % Fold 8 Call 26 Check 31 Bet 34 * Pokergirl z Pre-flop played % 65 grego777 Pre-flop played % 66 Daurgman Pre-flop played % 68 * Pokergirl z Went to S/D & won % 48 grego777 Went to S/D & won % 47 Daurgman Went to S/D & won % 47 * Pokergirl z Pre-flop aggression 2.6/4.0 grego777 Pre-flop aggression 2.5/4.0 Daurgman Pre-flop aggression 2.5/4.0 * Pokergirl z Post-flop aggression 1.4/4.0 grego777 Post-flop aggression 1.5/4.0 Daurgman Post-flop aggression 1.6/4.0 |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
who are grego777 and daurgman?
is it surprising that people with similar pre-flop stats have similar post-flop stats? |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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More than likely it's b/c Crazy Mike gave him information under the condition it stay private. [/ QUOTE ] ...if that is true, he could simply say that. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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who are grego777 and daurgman? is it surprising that people with similar pre-flop stats have similar post-flop stats? [/ QUOTE ] obviously FT alleges that they are accounts that use the same bot. It was previously speculated that greggo was another account of hers earlier in this thread. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
i wasn't told anything about daurgman being connected here
but that account was very obviously a bot back when lip2lip and BobaLoca and all the other accounts that are accepted as bots were running. he had all the same characteristics as them. when all the accounts were killed and daurgman was still standing i was pretty shocked ive played him recently and he hasn't shown all the characteristics he used to |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
I think the PF%, W$SD% and AF's all don't tell you very much.
I have to think lots of heads-up players are in that range. The other stuff I'm really not so sure. Would be interesting to get some input from other heads-up players as to how unusual they think it is for the 3 players to have such similar stats. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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who are grego777 and daurgman? is it surprising that people with similar pre-flop stats have similar post-flop stats? [/ QUOTE ] Don't forget this is simply an extract of what I assume is a mountain of information. Obviously FTP isn't simply looking at stats, or else the information in the other FTP thread a couple of months ago about the supposed 1/2 NL FR bots would've come out with the accused guilty. But instead they were said to be innocent. Again I'm looking forward to Mike's conclusion. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
If Full Tilt is banning people due to similar poker stats im about ready to withdraw.
I if i go threw poker tracker looking at winning players with large amounts of hands they stats all line up similar and you can find several people with the same thing. There has to be more good evidence that can actually prove something |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
It would be nice if you could get permission to post more info. Even one or two more pieces of corroborating evidence might help. I think any info that would not give away Fulltilt technical and secuirity systems would be good if they have such info.
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Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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If Full Tilt is banning people due to similar poker stats we should all withdraw. [/ QUOTE ] FYP |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
So looking at the stats Mike Haven has posted, sillysal's stats certainly do look similar to the other two players.
What I'd like to know is, how much MORE similar sillysal's stats are to these players, as compared to all other LHE players on FTP. Similarity is certainly not proof when there are millions of accounts on FTP, and where at least one of those accounts will randomly have stats similar to known bots. If this is FTP's "evidence" then it's statistically very weak. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
How does having the same stats PROVE I was using illegal software? I'm interested in other high stake winning players stats. Can we post those as well? How does this make me a bot?
Anybody ever see me have weird timing issues? How many of you seen me tilt and run away. I'm kind of known for that. What bot runs from action? LOL. I want to see the PROOF that they found any type of illegal software running on my computer. That's the kind of proof I'm demanding. Posting my stasts is just not gonna cut the mustard FTP. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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It might be because you use 2 accounts... grego777 and pokergirl z -Crazy Mike [/ QUOTE ] I knew I had seen the name grego777 before. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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How does having the same stats PROVE I was using illegal software? I'm interested in other high stake winning players stats. Can we post those as well? How does this make me a bot? Anybody ever see me have weird timing issues? How many of you seen me tilt and run away. I'm kind of known for that. What bot runs from action? LOL. I want to see the PROOF that they found any type of illegal software running on my computer. That's the kind of proof I'm demanding. Posting my stasts is just not gonna cut the mustard FTP. [/ QUOTE ] Interesting switch in tone. I'm leaning towards more likely than not you were cheating, but how FTP handled/is handling this is still atrocious, because more likely than not is not enough to justify seizing 47 grand. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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I think the PF%, W$SD% and AF's all don't tell you very much. I have to think lots of heads-up players are in that range. The other stuff I'm really not so sure. Would be interesting to get some input from other heads-up players as to how unusual they think it is for the 3 players to have such similar stats. [/ QUOTE ] Oh boy, I was really hoping FT wasn't ONLY going to give this information. This is really tough, b/c if you were going to come up with a simple, basic strategy I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that stats of a bunch of different players could mirror one another (even this closely). With that said, its been quite obvious to us who have played these games for a while that pokergirl z and greggo77 play just about the same as the bots who were previously busted. How much that means or doesn't mean I'm not sure. I really think it's pretty scary if FT is simply going of the stats of these players without any way of determining how statistically significant those numbers actually are. You can't just say "oh they have identical stats so they must be bots". Of course it makes it more likely but I just can't see it being damning. Also, 3-4 months ago I thought Daurgman was a bot (and actually made a post about it which I later deleted as most people disagreed). As recent as a month ago his play was much different and not consistent with "botish" play. Also, to gehrig and anyone else who plays these games...I have to imagine "cenizo" has an almost identical style to these guys. Are we convicting him as well? I just really hope there's more information that this. Like I said, it's really difficult for anyone to say how statictically significant these numbers are. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
So you do not deny having multiple accounts?
EDIT: You guys are overlooking the fact that those stats are simply an EXTRACT of what Mike was given. I'm quite confident that their decision was definitely not based on stats alone. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
In a game like limit, wouldn't better players gravitate towards very similar stats in the long run?
This seems like a huge witch hunt. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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So looking at the stats Mike Haven has posted, sillysal's stats certainly do look similar to the other two players. What I'd like to know is, how much MORE similar sillysal's stats are to these players, as compared to all other LHE players on FTP. Similarity is certainly not proof when there are millions of accounts on FTP, and where at least one of those accounts will randomly have stats similar to known bots. If this is FTP's "evidence" then it's statistically very weak. [/ QUOTE ] I haven't read the whole thread. FT has some info that we don't, the complete knowledge of the hole cards. I don't doubt that there are several people with nearly identical stats to mine playing the same limits - but there are going to be differences in the hole cards that are played. I'd certainly hope that FT isn't going to freeze accounts on stats alone, given that they have access to perfect information that is unavailable to the general public. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
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Interesting switch in tone. I'm leaning towards more likely than not you were cheating [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, my thoughts too. But I'm still open-minded about this. Will be interesting to hear from Mike Haven if FT had more to it than just that. I assume they did. Honestly, it seems like sillysal is perfectly willing to let FT say ANYTHING about the investigation. She has waived her privacy stuff and doesn't mind ANY of the information being out there. In fact, she is begging for it to be publicized. So I really don't know why we need Mike Haven in the middle of all this necessarily. FT can just let everyone in on whatever additional info they choose without having to go through a middle-man. So even this aspect of the information release is being handled a bit ridiculously imo. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
MicroBob: The reason for Mike is because, as they said before, they don't want the public knowing how they detect cheaters. So basically by having a middle man they're only letting one person (Mike) know how they detect cheaters with him giving his opinion on the evidence.
And everybody, don't forget that they ended up saying that the 3 or 4 accused players in the giant thread about 1/2 NL FR bots were innocent EVEN THOUGH their stats were extremely similar, and there was much more evidence than what we have been presented with here in this case so far. |
Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it
Seems like you're a cheater, SillySal.
Maybe FTP didn't handle the situation properly, but perhaps we should recognize that it seems they did make the right decision and I think they have a right to be annoyed if an obvious cheater sends them dozens of emails claiming their innocence. |
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