(razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

I've started playing some razz MTTs on pokerstars. This is from a $10/$1000 guarantee event. This started as kind of a value-steal and I had a good hand so I kept going. Too aggressive to cap river?

Tournament - Razz - Level VIII (200/400), Ante 40, Bring-In 60 (converter)

Hero: 3,823
Seat 2: 10,931
Seat 3: 5,795
Seat 4: 2,847
Seat 5: 5,555
Seat 6: 6,557
Seat 7: 3,550
Seat 8: 4,613

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.60 SB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.80 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.80 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

River - (4.80 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets___raises___calls

Total pot: (12.80 BB)

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

meh maybe I'm beating myself up over nothing. He has to have exactly A24 to have me here. I think he has A2 or A4 a lot when he starts.

This hand crippled me pretty badly. I'm down to 3bb but I'm not dead yet.

I started on the sweetest table in the world. Hyper-lag who doesn't know how to play razz, at all, caps every hand he's in and a lot of other players try to bluff him off his hand. So, they funnel money to him, he funnels to me. Then I get moved to the table full of big stacks - I assume they busted out several of their players quickly because the #1 and #2 in the tournament are seated there. #1 is mostly laying low, #2 is active and not #2 any more.

When you get really low, like less than 3bb, in a big tournament with a long way to go, are you trying to steal when you have a chance at it, or conserving chips for wheel/6 low draws to get it all in?

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

Well, I'm out. I get it all in on 6th with 7659AQ vs 625966 and he rivers a 4

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
meh maybe I'm beating myself up over nothing. He has to have exactly A24 to have me here. I think he has A2 or A4 a lot when he starts.

This hand crippled me pretty badly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that really sucked. Literally, figuratively and in all ways except good. If it'd been me, I'd have raised also - but just called when reraised - because these people have an annoying habit of having the nuts when they reraise. But I thought you played it fine.

I've only come back twice from very low stacks late in a trny - once I made a final table, the other time I cashed. Both times, I just got lucky, catching three babies, going all-in with more than one caller, taking the whole thing and being right back in it. Then getting lucky some more. So, I like the wait for something good and gamble approach.

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

My reasoning at the time was, I needed to collect chips badly, and I'd only have a few bb if I lost the hand. I don't know, maybe that's not good reasoning. If I would not have been totally crippled by losing this hand, I might have slowed down when he 3bet.

What's a good average finish place for a decent player in a 100-person event, limit, with a structure like this (3000 starting chips, pokerstars blind structure, 15 minute levels). I feel like I should be doing better than I am (finishing in the top 1/2 to top 1/4), and I wonder if I'm making some kind of obvious mistake early in the tournament. Inevitably I get to a point where 1/2 the contestants are gone, any 1 bad hand will hurt me badly, and I don't win any hands from then on.

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you get really low, like less than 3bb, in a big tournament with a long way to go, are you trying to steal when you have a chance at it, or conserving chips for wheel/6 low draws to get it all in?

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Obviously if you can play a legitimate hand as a short stack in a tournament consider yourself very lucky. You get dealt a three card six or better about 9% of the time which means that if you just waited for a premium hand the antes would most likely eat up your chips by the time you actually got to play. Remember that if you are fortunate to double up - the antes that you spent looking for that opportunity ate up twice the amount on that pot.

Playing a short stack means you often have to take the worst of it in a gamble. Things like jam a three card eight against multiple opponents, or jam a nine-six against a single opponent, or playing 2 wheel cards against a habitual stealer, jamming when your the bring in with 2 cards to a seven against a late raiser. You have to find a situation where there is a realistic chance of doubling up where you are a underdog with a chance or perhaps even favourite.

[ QUOTE ]
What's a good average finish place for a decent player in a 100-person event, limit, with a structure like this (3000 starting chips, pokerstars blind structure, 15 minute levels).

[/ QUOTE ]

To win a limit event like these, you need alot of luck. The stakes goes up very quickly which deducts from the good players edge. To win, you will need one of those days where the sun shines and everything you touch turns to gold.

It would be rare that a good player would finish in the last quarter of a 100 player tournament, I say rare because sometimes you play correctly and just get donked to death. I would say about 60-70% of the time they would make the top 50 and maybe around 30-35% of the time make the top 25. Of course this is just pure speculation...lol

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

Forgot to look at the hand.

The hand was played correctly with the exception of seventh street. Your action on sixth when your board showed such strength he checked into you perhaps with the seven low already made and by checking behind you showed him that you did not have 7 low beat so his original raise on seventh says I got at least a 7 low, your reraise says I got the 7 low beat, his re-re-raise says I am about as strong as my board allows me to be..... that is when you should of called with your 65 low.

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

Bet sixth, but otherwise fine. I think capping the river is in order. Presumably, he needs a Six-low to jam with you, but you beat more of his possible Sixes than beat you.

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

The problem with betting 6th is that I don't have a hand, and 6th almost has to have paired him for me to be ahead, and I still need a favorable river in that case. If he didn't fold 5th when my board turned all scary, I don't think he'd fold 6th.

Further, I was thinking that checking behind would induce a bluff on 7th if he does NOT have a 7, which I could pick off with 9 high, although hopefully I'll have something better. Actually I'm not sure if I could have called with 9 high.

If I bet 6th and I don't improve, aren't I committed to betting the river? That seems pretty dangerous given that if I'm not beat on 6th, I'm beat on 7th something like 1/3 of the time.

Also I think it's likely I avoided a check-raise on 6th. I probably would have check-raised with a 76 there in a cash game (not sure in a tournament, depends I guess)

I don't know. I can see the value in betting there but I already felt pretty awfully committed to the hand, had 1/3 of my chips in there. I wanted to be able to get out if things turned uglier but maybe that's a losing philosophy.

Re: (razz) thoughts on this tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet sixth, but otherwise fine. I think capping the river is in order. Presumably, he needs a Six-low to jam with you, but you beat more of his possible Sixes than beat you.

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No, capping is completely out of order. Even if the villain is one of Rusty's favorite lagtards he is telling you this time I have you beat. He could be wrong of course with a worse 6, and maybe you have a 55/45 advantage over his range, but this isn't some shorthanded cash game. This is a MTT and putting in 1/4 of what's in front of you when you may be short stacked for that thin a value is a good way to send yourself to the rail.