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-   -   i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=558408)

hamnegger 12-01-2007 01:02 AM

i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
ok you devise YOUR plan for playing this hand. then ill share what i think is optimal and why.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1695)
SB (t2315)
BB (t1440)
UTG (t2750)
UTG+1 (t2075)
MP1 (t1205)
MP2 (t1750)
MP3 (t850)
Hero (t1170)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls t90, Button calls t90, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t315) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t120</font>, Hero ?

AMT 12-01-2007 01:41 AM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
i dont mind a call, but id make it 360 all day and obviously get it in on the flop and on most turns.

erc007 12-01-2007 03:49 AM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
Not sure what part of his range UTG is underbetting this flop with, but u have to raise here. Slowplaying won't get u amymore chips, unless button also hit the flop really hard. I'd make it 400, or maybe just shove if u think that will make your hand look like a draw.

gtpitch 12-01-2007 11:24 AM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
I raise to ~T350 preflop and shove the flop.

henrikjs 12-01-2007 11:42 AM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind a call, but id make it 360 all day and obviously get it in on the flop and on most turns.

[/ QUOTE ]
I call like 10% of the time and raise the standard 3x his raise the rest of the time

hyde 12-01-2007 01:06 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind a call, but id make it 360 all day and obviously get it in on the flop and on most turns.

[/ QUOTE ]
I call like 10% of the time and raise the standard 3x his raise the rest of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

I call like 25% of the time and raise the standard 3x his raise the rest of the time.
Of course I have a moderate FPS affliction.

ShowUthExit 12-01-2007 01:17 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
reads?

levAA 12-01-2007 01:44 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
I think calling here is superior to raising for 2 reasons.

1.) His c-bet is really weak and with a hand that strong we want to get all our chips in

2.) Our stack is small enough, so we can easily get it in on the two remaining streets with position.

hagbard celine 12-01-2007 02:19 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think calling here is superior to raising for 2 reasons.

1.) His c-bet is really weak and with a hand that strong we want to get all our chips in

2.) Our stack is small enough, so we can easily get it in on the two remaining streets with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what about the button? Not to see monsters under the bed, but flatting on the flop gives him fantastic odds to call with one of the two primary draws out there.

Still, I hate to raise and see them both fold, as UTGs lead does look weak, and raising the UTG raiser on this flop looks strong.

So, I call, planning to continue to build the pot on the turn and river. Although my plan changes alot depending on whether or not the BTN calls, and what falls on the turn.

levAA 12-01-2007 02:26 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think calling here is superior to raising for 2 reasons.

1.) His c-bet is really weak and with a hand that strong we want to get all our chips in

2.) Our stack is small enough, so we can easily get it in on the two remaining streets with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what about the button? Not to see monsters under the bed, but flatting on the flop gives him fantastic odds to call with one of the two primary draws out there.

Still, I hate to raise and see them both fold, as UTGs lead does look weak, and raising the UTG raiser on this flop looks strong.

So, I call, planning to continue to build the pot on the turn and river. Although my plan changes alot depending on whether or not the BTN calls, and what falls on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot on the flop is already 1/3 of your stack and we hold a set. If button calls I get it in on the turn. If button folds I might bet smaller on the turn and get it in on the river (here depending what hits on the turn). I'm not very concerned about a straight-draw here, as we too have (and get more) outs for a boat.

hagbard celine 12-01-2007 02:41 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
I'm an idiot.

You're right lev, didn't look at ham's stack. Your plan is best, IMO. Call flop. If button calls, get it in on the turn, otherwise look to bet the turn and get it in on the river.

Sherman 12-01-2007 02:50 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
LOL. A min-raise might be fun (i.e. not as horrid as usual). It compels the button to fold even if he has a flush draw b/c he doesn't want to get caught between you and the original bettor in a raising war.

The original bettor will probably be compelled to call with anything that he bet with b/c of the pot odds. Of course he might get pissed and shove which is obv. ideal. If he just calls, he is becoming increasingly more committed to the pot and you have increased the likelihood of getting him in by the river.

LOL min-raiseaments.

Sherman

hagbard celine 12-01-2007 03:04 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
[ QUOTE ]
LOL. A min-raise might be fun

[/ QUOTE ]

Sherm, you smokin' sherm?!?

Don't you see where I'm from, dawg?!?! I'll buss a cap up in yo ass!

hamnegger 12-01-2007 03:05 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
i really thought raisers c-bet was weak and small. so he has maybe an underpair or gut shot. im NOT afriad of a gut shot especially when i can redraw. no flat calling is definitely the best option because the button is my best chance of doubling through. by calling im saying i have a little something and so button now may say hey i can steal this pot or hehas to raise if he really does have a hand. once he raises ive got him bc any man sized raise committs him to call my shove. if he flat calls ill value bet the turn and river. as played he raised utg folded (i knew he was weak) and i shoved and won the maximum. when i hit a set i want to win the max i really don't care about draws sucking out if they do god bless them.

Sherman 12-01-2007 04:24 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
So you "knew" button was going to raise you. WTF. Sure you line is optimal if you know that button is going to raise. But how do you know button is going to raise? He was getting great odds in position PF to call. He could have any number of cards here.

This just seems really results oriented to me. If you flat call and he calls and the turn brings a flush card, UTG checks, you bet and button shoves (a pretty realistic result) you wouldn't be posting this.

Sherman

J.A.K. 12-01-2007 06:50 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
I've gotten myself into trouble eking out extra value on coordinated boards with my sets. But this is against a single villain. With more than one opponent and this flop, I call here 0% of the time. Adding 30% to your starting stack is a good thing. I'm probably just overbet shoving the flop.

black666 12-01-2007 07:40 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
Raise PF.
Raise flop.

What kind of buy-in is this from?

hamnegger 12-01-2007 08:06 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
i really really hope all these people who keep saying reraise preflop read this. because i completely disagree. the raiser is utg we have to give him credit for a strong hand. he knows this so a reraise allows him to play perfect poker. if he has a hand worse than jj he folds. perhaps ace q is only hand a raise is good against and folds. if he has jacks beat we are cooked and if he has ak he sees 5 cards. my positional advantage is gone. i love you 3 betting guys w jj w 30bb+ bc when i raise utg w kings you give me all your chips. and sherman i don't KNOW he is going to raise but i think there is a good chance he will.if he hits a flush (rare so rare i don't even worry about it) he will either win all my chips or i will fill up. the 4 flusher w an over card SHOULD RAISE given this action before him anyway. I WANT THAT. ill take better than 2:1 on my $$$ anyday. sherman this would all change if stacks were big

black666 12-01-2007 08:25 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
1. please hit the "enter" key at least 2 or 3 times in your posts
2. you haven't answered my question about the buyin.

You have the 4th best hand in poker, so why not 3-bet in position? You can't always see monsters under the bed (KK). I've seen people call or shove behind you with A-rag and 55+

[ QUOTE ]
i love you 3 betting guys w jj w 30bb+ bc when i raise utg w kings you give me all your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what .. I love you guys flat calling with JJ when I'm holding a suited connector on the button or in the blinds. You allow me to see a cheap flop and give me all your chips once I flop a monster.

The whole reason for the PF 3-bet is to isolate the UTG villain. Once you call you are inviting everyone to join the family pot. You can consider yourself lucky that both blinds folded after the button called.

hamnegger 12-01-2007 09:00 PM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
[ QUOTE ]
1. please hit the "enter" key at least 2 or 3 times in your posts
2. you haven't answered my question about the buyin.

You have the 4th best hand in poker, so why not 3-bet in position? You can't always see monsters under the bed (KK). I've seen people call or shove behind you with A-rag and 55+

[ QUOTE ]
i love you 3 betting guys w jj w 30bb+ bc when i raise utg w kings you give me all your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what .. I love you guys flat calling with JJ when I'm holding a suited connector on the button or in the blinds. You allow me to see a cheap flop and give me all your chips once I flop a monster.



[/ QUOTE ]


1. yes i should hit enter

2. 50 buy in

3 we agree to disagree gl which is good bc not everybody should play the same it would be friggin boring

Sherman 12-02-2007 04:40 AM

Re: i flop middle set str8 and flush draws are out. you play it
 
Ham. I don't mind the call PF.

I dislike not raising on the flop. You say a guy "should" raise with a pair and flush draw behind you, but what if he just has the flush draw? He certainly should NOT raise and should take a look at the turn getting a great price.

Sherman


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