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-   -   Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=558454)

Praxising 12-01-2007 02:34 AM

Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
Comments on the last two streets?

Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (6.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

River - (12.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (14.30 BB)

tinkerman 12-01-2007 08:25 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
Seems correct to me, keep raising on 6th as you are favourite to win.

A check call is correct on 7th as he could be betting with a made 9 though some will argue you should bet out on 7th, I think check call makes the most. Also, this guy could easily raise if you bet if he makes his hand *which I've seen at these limits)

Sp00n 12-01-2007 11:25 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
My instinct is to bet, but in this situation it is very easy to calculate to correct play.

Calculating villains range:

Worst case A3J962x:
Outs: 444555777(Total 9)

Best case 38J962x
Outs: A444555(Total 7)

As a rough guess we think villain has 8 outs here, there are 37 cards remaining in the deck. This means villain will improve to a hand that beats ours 21.6% of the time, the remaining times we win.
If villain raises our 7th street bet when he improves to a 7 or better and we call every time we stand to lose 2 bets 21.6% of the time
If villain calls our 7th street bet unimproved every time, we can expect to win 1 bet 78.4%.

So our EV if we bet is 1*0.784 - 2*0.216 = 0.352BB
This does not include villains bluff raising frequency or our frequency for folding to villains raise.

It is more difficult to calculate our EV if we c/c because we need to know bluffing frequencies.

Any questions let me know.

Sp00n 12-01-2007 11:28 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
Made a mistake: Villain can not make an 8 better then Hero's 58. Probably does not make a lot of difference anyway. The logic behind the post is still correct.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 12:52 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
I agree with spoon's analysis but only if he calls every time (I think he will). Check-calling can make more money though if his bluffing frequency is high enough. Specifically you make 1bb every time you check and he bluffs and you lose 1bb every time you check and he bets a hand that beats you. So 21% of the time you lose 1bb, B% of the time you win 1bb. EV = B - .2 so check-calling is a better move if B > 55%. Although I think 50% might be an accurate estimation based on this guys play on 6th street, it's probably never higher than that and often it's lower, so I think bet-call is still better. I'm not going to do the calculation for bet-fold but for some opponents that's the money maker.

Sp00n 12-01-2007 01:00 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
I don't think villain will bluff-bet or bluff-raise very often because he has show-down value here. However, if his board something like xxJ36Jx it is more likely he will.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 01:08 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
The question is how dumb the villain is. 6th st makes me think he doesn't understand razz very well, unless he just doesn't believe that prax has an 8. Anyway, not everybody knows that you shouldn't bluff hands that have showdown value.

If he never bluff-raises then it's a bet-fold, no? Even if he bluff raises fairly a bit you make more bet-folding.

adanthar 12-01-2007 01:34 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
[ QUOTE ]
If he never bluff-raises then it's a bet-fold, no? Even if he bluff raises fairly a bit you make more bet-folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

bet/folding seventh here is like setting the appropriate amount of money on fire

Praxising 12-01-2007 03:05 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
This is what I think happened. I had just gotten on this table and never seen Seat 5 before. We've already discussed how they play at .50/1 - so many, almost all, will play two small cards with any brick. Since he didn't know me, he didn't know I don't play hidden bricks. I think he assumed I made a 98 here, when he made a 96. So he raised.

6th Street - (6.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

I think my reraise made him understand I had made my 8 on 5th, but he wasn't letting go. What he made me believe with the raise and call is that he had a good 6 draw.

River - (12.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets

I thought if he did not improve he would have checked it down and only would bet if he improved. He might bluff, of course, but I was calling in any case, obviously. Not that it matters, but he made a 6 on the river.

Thanks for the comments and all the work calculating math; I think I probably played it as well as I could. I often wonder when I lose a big pot if I screwed up in some way I couldn't see.

Andy B 12-01-2007 03:51 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
I don't know why you need comments on sixth. You have a board lock and a super draw. Get your money in there. I'd definitely bet the river. He's going to look you up with a worse hand, and he's unlikely to raise.

Andy B 12-01-2007 03:53 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
This guy just raised sixth street when he had a Nine against a very obvious Eight. You can't fold to a river raise.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 04:06 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he never bluff-raises then it's a bet-fold, no? Even if he bluff raises fairly a bit you make more bet-folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

bet/folding seventh here is like setting the appropriate amount of money on fire

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponent will NEVER raise as a bluff on the end then bet/fold is the obvious play. I don't believe such an opponent really exists.

The equilibrium point where folding is the same as calling is something like .2/15 which is about 1.3%. I don't treat razz like NLHE where you can give your opponent at least a 10% chance of bluffing but I can easily think that most razz opponents are capable of bluffing 1.3% of the time.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 04:07 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you need comments on sixth. You have a board lock and a super draw. Get your money in there. I'd definitely bet the river. He's going to look you up with a worse hand, and he's unlikely to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

He'll raise every time he can beat an 8, imo.

Andy B 12-01-2007 04:18 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
I s'pose. Are you saying that we shouldn't bet the river?

Andy B 12-01-2007 04:19 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe such an opponent really exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why even bring it up? Bet/folding the river would be absurd.

Praxising 12-01-2007 05:32 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
[ QUOTE ]
Bet/folding the river would be absurd.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree, not even an option, tho' when he bet I was about 90% sure he'd sucked out on me. But I don't agree this is boardlock:

[ QUOTE ]
6th Street - (6.30 BB)

Hero: 2 5 4 A 8 9___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx J 9 6 2___raises___calls


[/ QUOTE ]
I know definitions of words evolve and are sometimes situational. But while this display means I have him beaten on 6th, in my lexicon "boardlock" is when he <u>cannot</u> win on the river regardless of what card he gets. So, J96T would be boardlock, because the best possible hand he can make is a 9 hi. With the board he had, he could still make a 6. Which he did.

Andy B 12-01-2007 05:41 PM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
I think that when everybody else uses the term "board-lock," they mean that the other guy currently cannot have you beaten. You have a board-lock on sixth, and as such should pump as much money into the pot as humanly possible.

iStackBooks 12-02-2007 12:12 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
Bet/folding here is gross but only because our opponent might be bad enough to raise with a worse hand. Personally, I think that there are tons of players who NEVER raise on a bluff here... i'm one of them - especially in a micro game.

Sp00n 12-02-2007 12:19 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
Nobody folds anything at Razz, bluffing here is a huge mistake vs 99.9999999999% of players.

ChipsAhoya 12-02-2007 12:35 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
Prax, your definition of boardlocked is drawing dead, then. It's helpful to distinguish between the two...

-ChipsAhoya

RustyBrooks 12-02-2007 12:39 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
This comes up all the time, what is considered the standard definition? I think of it as, I have his best hole cards beat right now.

Praxising 12-02-2007 02:37 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
[ QUOTE ]
Prax, your definition of boardlocked is drawing dead, then. It's helpful to distinguish between the two...

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]It's the definition I got out of the books I read when I started to play - but words and meanings evolve, so now, I think, people use "boardlock" when they mean "I know I have the best hand right now." Classically, it did mean drawing dead.

If the convention is now to mean "best right now" I'm fine with that. But I'm not sure that's standard usage in the wider poker community. I'm easy, tho' so in future "drawing dead" it shall be!

Sp00n 12-02-2007 03:35 AM

Re: Razz .50/1 - betting 6th and 7th
 
Hero has board lock where he unquestionably has the best hand and best draw, however if villain makes his draw and Hero bricks, Hero loses.

EDIT:

A2349 vs 5678K


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