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-   -   Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=557013)

andyfox 11-29-2007 12:49 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
Correct. You declare yourself out of collection and the dealer announces "Seat 2 is out of collection." Always struck me as odd that different players could be allowed different ways of paying collection.

andyfox 11-29-2007 12:53 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
I think that's the theory behind it, that it's quicker in that the dealer doesn't have to go around the entire table making change. But in practice it doesn't save time. Many of the dealers are not sure if the pot is big enough to have been a collection pot and they are unsure about how many people were actually dealt in or who declared themselves out of collection. So if two people were walking, and one person declared himself out of collection, the winner of the collection pot, has to pay for six players, which requires making change, and then the dealer has to take collection from the three non-participating players, so she has to make change for them too. In practice it probably is slower than individual collection taking.

dizzle98 11-29-2007 12:54 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
For everyone who thinks this is unfair, would you feel it's unfair if UTG had won the pot and paid everyone's time for the next half hour then left? I don't think everyone is going to toss him $12 just because he's leaving. This is just the price you pay for using time pots.

If you want the money back when he leaves instead of giving it to him, then he should have the right to win the pot, leave, and demand everyone pay him $12 for the time he just paid for them. Either he's involved in the time pot...and any time paid "on his behalf" belongs to him, or he's not.

psandman 11-29-2007 01:01 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
[ QUOTE ]
For everyone who thinks this is unfair, would you feel it's unfair if UTG had won the pot and paid everyone's time for the next half hour then left? I don't think everyone is going to toss him $12 just because he's leaving. This is just the price you pay for using time pots.

If you want the money back when he leaves instead of giving it to him, then he should have the right to win the pot, leave, and demand everyone pay him $12 for the time he just paid for them. Either he's involved in the time pot...and any time paid "on his behalf" belongs to him, or he's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point is valid only in a theoretical sense. Sure if the player had won the pot he would be liable for time, however you have to believe that the player was actually going to to play the hand to believe that he could have been liable for the whole collection. In fact this rule encourages a player who was about to get up and leave, to take a hand merely for the opportunity to fold it and get paid $12. That is the player could not have been liable for the time collection because there was no chance that he would win the pot.

dizzle98 11-29-2007 01:13 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For everyone who thinks this is unfair, would you feel it's unfair if UTG had won the pot and paid everyone's time for the next half hour then left? I don't think everyone is going to toss him $12 just because he's leaving. This is just the price you pay for using time pots.

If you want the money back when he leaves instead of giving it to him, then he should have the right to win the pot, leave, and demand everyone pay him $12 for the time he just paid for them. Either he's involved in the time pot...and any time paid "on his behalf" belongs to him, or he's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point is valid only in a theoretical sense. Sure if the player had won the pot he would be liable for time, however you have to believe that the player was actually going to to play the hand to believe that he could have been liable for the whole collection. In fact this rule encourages a player who was about to get up and leave, to take a hand merely for the opportunity to fold it and get paid $12. That is the player could not have been liable for the time collection because there was no chance that he would win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think he's open-folding AA or KK here though? I don't. So he still has some chance to win the pot. That being said I still think it's scummy to have no intention to play just to grab the $12. But now you're getting into reading people's minds about what their intention for that 1 hand is. And he's UTG so probably not playing many hands here anyways. I think as long as his intent is to play the hand as he normally would then it's ok if he does it. I personally think the time pot is inherently unfair in the first place as tight players will almost never have to pay. (they play fewer pots and the pots they play are likely to be smaller due to their tight image and everyone folding).

But as long as people continue to play time pots the theory behind it is that everyone in the hand has "their money" taken out of the pot. Since it's their money, they are entitled to have it returned to them if they leave. Any player who has the intention of folding all but the nuts on these time pots is theoretically getting a "free $12 from the player who won the pot"

dizzle98 11-29-2007 01:18 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
Psandman-

Obviously you think the player should give his $12 time refund to Player A who won the pot. What would you say should happen if UTG wins the pot, pays time, and leaves after one hand? Should every other player at the table pay him $12 each for the time he just paid for them?

(I actually believe it's the right thing to do to give Player A the $12, but I also believe it's the right thing to do for every other player to give him $12 if he wins and leaves the next hand)

andyfox 11-29-2007 01:30 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
The way I look at it, if you decide to be in the collection pot, you're saying, "I owe $12 for collection. But I'm agreeing to gamble on not having to pay the $12 by being in the collection pot, the winner of which will pay my collection for me. So I will either end up having to pay $12 x the number of players in the pot or nothing." There is no thought of ending up plus $12.

Also, from another theoretical standpoint, collections are paid in advance. If he leaves and doesn't get any future hands, they should not have to be paid for. The house agrees that they should not be paid for, that's why they give the money back. Who should get it?

dizzle98 11-29-2007 01:31 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
Not that I have played in many places that use the time pot...but the clear solution imho seems to be that once a player knows they are leaving they declare themselves out of collection and pay their own time/get their own refund for their partial half hour. Thereby not paying anyone else's time for that 1 hand (or 2 or 5 or whatever) and not having anyone else pay their time.

Curiousity for those who play w/ time charge regularly, what is the rule in place for this situation in places besides Commerce? Does Player A get $12 back? Does no one get anything back?

psandman 11-29-2007 01:36 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think he's open-folding AA or KK here though?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he may. first he may fold without even looking second. Plating AA or KK here has very little potential for him. Sure with AA he could win a huge pot, but in reality we know many players believe that with AA or KK you win a small pot or lose a big pot. Winning a small pot here is pointless because if its enough of a pot to pay the collection its going to be a smaller pot after paying. So in this instance where a player has decided to leave and only is playing the pot to get his $12 he very well may open fold AA or KK.

I agree any player who decides to not play until the time pot gets paid is theoretically getting a free 12 from the winner. However those players are giving up the opportunity to play a number of hands. The problem i have with this rule is that it actually encourages a player who was planning to leave to stay for another hand with no intention of playing simply to get the $12. If the house dropped the $12 it might be equally unfair to the winner of the pot, but at least the player who was leaving has no incentive to stay and make the collection higher.

dizzle98 11-29-2007 01:37 PM

Re: Horrible Time Pot Rule at Commerce
 
[ QUOTE ]
The way I look at it, if you decide to be in the collection pot, you're saying, "I owe $12 for collection. But I'm agreeing to gamble on not having to pay the $12 by being in the collection pot, the winner of which will pay my collection for me. So I will either end up having to pay $12 x the number of players in the pot or nothing." There is no thought of ending up plus $12.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who doesn't play that pot is theoretically up $12 though. Owing $12 and not having to pay is really being up $12. It's no different than collecting time individually and having the winner of the pot toss everyone $12 to compensate them...you're still up $12 from where you should have been.


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