wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

Standard? I usually mix up 3betting the flop and raising the turn. Am I hurting myself by not 'charging' the draws though?

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, INTENTION TO RAISE NONDIAMOND TURN.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

I usually reserve this play for flops that are dry ---&gt; opponent much more likely to have a vulnerable 1 pr or air hand.

On this board, too many turns either freeze him up or freeze you up

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

I like to 3 bet here if you've been messing around with him a lot. If you have been playing pretty weak I like waiting for the turn. The better he is the more I like to 3 bet the flop.
I think good players can get away from a 2 or 4 if you raise the turn here a lot.
You definetely need to mix it up depending on opps image of you

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

Why let the turn freeze you up. Can't assume he has flush here all the time. What do you think about a raise on the turn with a fold to a 3 bet?? Just curious?

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why let the turn freeze you up. Can't assume he has flush here all the time. What do you think about a raise on the turn with a fold to a 3 bet?? Just curious?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like plays that involve folding top pair 2nd best kicker. Too risky that he'd threebet a flush draw or a weaker K... plus if he has 2 pair I give up my shot at 3-9 outs.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

I don't really see a problem here with raise/folding *this* turn against a predictable opponent. About the only realistic hand here that is 3betting for value is K9, with K4s and K2s also possible depending on how loose he is. So you're not really giving up very much equity at all when you have to fold to the 3bet, and you certainly gain more from all the worse Kx calldowns you get.

That said, I like how you played this hand. Flush draws are a large part of the BBs flop check/raise range, so it makes sense to wait to see how your equity changes on the turn.

I think 3betting the flop is a fine line, and certainly should be used some of the time for variation. But your hand really isn't strong enough that you want to fast play it, and you're not in any better situation if you 3bet the flop and the turn comes the 9d. Now you bet the turn and you're usually crushed when he check/raises but you convince yourself to call down.

By the way, the idea of charging the draw is nonsense. All that matters is your equity versus your opponents' hand range and how it will change on future streets. It's irrelevant who has a made hand and who has a draw. (Besides your opponent doesn't always have a draw; his range is wider than that.) BTW, if your opponent has a hand like Ad 4d, then you're not "charging a draw" -- you're simply building a bigger pot in a coinflip situation where you are the one with reverse implied odds.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

I like SweetJazz's post. I think this is a great spot to mix things up becuz both strategies (3bet flop &amp; call flop-raise turn) run close in expectation.

I would also just call the turn in your current situation.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

thanks for the imput, I felt I played it optimally (which the varying frequence plan).

villian had A3 diamonds. sweetjazz I like your way of thinking, but I have a sinking suspeicion that some good LagTags think differently.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the imput, I felt I played it optimally (which the varying frequence plan).

villian had A3 diamonds. sweetjazz I like your way of thinking, but I have a sinking suspeicion that some good LagTags think differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

No good player will think diffently from sweetjazz's approach becuz a simple pokerstove analysis shows that we dont have the equity on the turn to consider raise/folding.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the imput, I felt I played it optimally (which the varying frequence plan).

villian had A3 diamonds. sweetjazz I like your way of thinking, but I have a sinking suspeicion that some good LagTags think differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

No good player will think diffently from sweetjazz's approach becuz a simple pokerstove analysis shows that we dont have the equity on the turn to consider raise/folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was expressing my dislike of raise/fold the turn here... I can't tell if you agree or disagree, kind of confused.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the imput, I felt I played it optimally (which the varying frequence plan).

villian had A3 diamonds. sweetjazz I like your way of thinking, but I have a sinking suspeicion that some good LagTags think differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

No good player will think diffently from sweetjazz's approach becuz a simple pokerstove analysis shows that we dont have the equity on the turn to consider raise/folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was expressing my dislike of raise/fold the turn here... I can't tell if you agree or disagree, kind of confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so youre not confused, I wasnt disagreeing with you. I was just pointing out that based on a simple pokerstove analysis, raise/folding the turn appears to be incorrect even if we have perfect knowledge that the villain wll never play back at us with a lesser hand. Of course this conclusion depends alot on the assumption of the villain's flop check/raising range and his call down range and turn folding range.

Actually I just realized that my analysis somewhat contradicts SweetJazz's remark: "I don't really see a problem here with raise/folding *this* turn against a predictable opponent."

Based on what my pokerstove observations, it appears that raise/folding is incorrect even against a predictable opponent.

Can someone else do their own Pstove analysis and see if their results are different than mine or see if there is a hole in my logic. I am still not that confident in applying pokerstove to actual play.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

Another reason I really hate raise/fold on the turn in this situation is because a player like me in the villain's shoes will sometimes not 3-bet the turn and c/r or donk the river instead.

Re: wait for turn, or charge the draw now?
 

agree with sweetjazz, sometime i think online player are too stubborn. i had the best hand, i had to 3 bet, charge him the max, etc!

for example, you flop second pair weak kick in a multi-way pot(k, q, rag) in the blinds, you bet and 2-3 limpers call, turn a 2 flush board with some low card. you bet, all fold to the last position player raise you ! you know 80% that he is semi bluffing, and if he is bluffing, he will fire the last bullet 100% if you show weakness ? so what you play here ? 3 bet and charge his draw ? no ! i called and act weak, so let him hang him self if he is bluffing. so i am winning or losing 3 bet no matter what (he is leading, bluffing, outdrew me). if i 3bet, i will lost 4 if i m behind or outdrew, and only win 3 iff i was winning.

however, if the player only will fire last bullet like 20% of the time or never, then i think you had to 3 bet it coz you wont gain anything if he didn't outdrew you!