Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I thought about reading this after i saw the post about law school.

Im currently a Freshman Chemical engineer at Cornell University. My career goals at this point are to work as an entry level engineer for a few years and at somepoint start working into management (this might mean getting MBA a few years down the road).

After completing almost the whole first semester i can tell without a doubt i will be below average in all my engineering classes meaning i will graduate with like a 2.4-2.7 GPA.

I have friends who are of similar intelligence who are juniors at Clemson university who are making 3.8-4.0s.

Financially (I know thats not the only / not the most important consideration) would it make more sense for me to transfer to a state school to save money on tution and get a much higher GPA?

It sorta seems like going back to the state school would be the obvious choice but at the same time i have to think that 5 years down the road nobody will care what my GPA is and they will either see Cornell or Clemson on my resume.

Any thoughts are welcome.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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5 years down the road nobody will care what my GPA is and they will either see Cornell or Clemson on my resume.


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Very true.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Stay at Cornell.
Get ur GPA to 3.0
???
Profit!

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I guess the real question i have is will i be able to get a decent job with a 2.4 GPA. I try to ask career services but they havent gotten back to me yet

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I'm not sure about Cornell, but the access to companies through on-campus recruiting at Berkeley greatly exceeds those of large CA state schools.

+better access to more companies
+likely recruiters know how tough your major is / lower avg gpa
-bring up your gpa
I sometimes wish I went to Cornell over Berkeley.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Problem is there are going to be 40 ChemEs with better GPA's than me. I guess i should start taking some econ classes to get the GPA up.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I would stay at Cornell and try my best to get the grades up.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I think a key question is why do you want to be an engineer?

Engineer is probably the major where the prestige of your school matters the LEAST in terms of getting a job. ( different obviously if you want to get into grad school or become a phd )

I am an engineer and I went to a big state school ( altho highly ranked for engineering ) and I work next to people that went to Stanford and people that went to the equiv of Southeastern Kentucky State, and we all make the same amount.

If you have a 2.5 I'm guessing you do not enjoy the math and physics, so why do it? Switch majors to business or finance. Make some connections, and get a good job in management based on the prestige of your school and the hiring circle that I'm sure Cornell has in that field.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I enjoy math and physics, im not even that bad at them either. Its just all the people around me are outrageously good at them.

Also im majoring in engineering because i think there is a good chance i would enjoy engineering and if i dont really then there are good oppurtonities in management down the road.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

o ok, ya just stick with it then

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Yeah, who knows maybe ill get smarter somehow and it wont even be an issue

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

imo nobody really will care about the difference between a 2.8 and a 3.8 or whatever. GPA doesn't mean much to most employers, imo. Unless you are like cream-of-the-crop, then it helps, surely.

Cornell would look awesome on a resume. But do you want to "struggle" for the next several years or take it slightly easier and have a bit lower stress?

Is Cornell worth the extra tens of thousands of dollars in the long-run? Maybe not. In the business world you have collegiate superstars who are mediocre, and you have community college guys that sparkle. THere is not a direct relationship between college and "the pros". Much like in sports.

Troy Smith just won Heismann at Ohio State and he BARELY caught on as a 3rd-stringer behind 2 terrible QB's in Baltimore, while Kevin Kolb went to the University of Houston, merely won Conference USA championship (not even a BCS conference), yet was the third drafted QB last year, and is poised to take over for Donovan freaking McNabb.

Sports and education aren't exactly the same, but my opinion still stands.

Myself? I got a 5-year accredited architecture degree from the University of Houston for $17,000. I know people who spent a lot more to go to "better" schools like Texas A&M or Washington University in St. Louis, and their degree is not accredited. (Meaning it is tougher and takes longer for them to get licensed.)

Sorry for the long post, I cannot speak on what a "great" college is like, because I went to a cheap state school, but I certainly feel I got more "bang for the buck" at the school I attended. So in my limited opinion, I'd say drop down to the state school if it is much cheaper, and slightly less stressful. Try to flourish there, meet more people, and enjoy being out of student loan debt 10 years sooner! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I will tell you that a 2.4 GPA is not going to cut it. If you want a good job you have to at least be over a 3.0. If you can't get above a 3.0 then you are not cut out for engineering or probably spending too much time on here and not enough studying.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

i would also think about how much you like cornell. the difference is probably going to be neglible in the long haul, engineers with great GPAs from Clemson and engineers with mediocre GPAs from Cornell both figure to be fairly successful in the grand scheme of things.

if you were able to get into engineering at cornell i feel that you can probably earn close to a 3.0 at the worst if you apply yourself. are you sure you are really that into it? assuming you are, do you think you'd enjoy yourself more at a state school? that's something only you can answer, but i don't think you should really worry about money 20 years down the road at this point.

i know for me, i wouldn't have been very happy at many of the best private schools. i really enjoyed the lifestyle at the state school i attended.

tc

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

thanks taylor

I guess I really need to finish most of the year before i can think more seriously about it.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I am an engineer and I graduated from Penn State.

From my experience, it appears that most companies (hiring for engineering jobs) don't care too much about where you went to school. Many companies will not even look at you if you don't have at least a 3.0 GPA. The company I work for makes it tougher to get an interview if you don't have a 3.0. They don't pay differently based on the school.

If you want to go to grad school, having a better GPA is better than the school you chose. If you think you can get better grades at a state school, then I would switch. You'll save money too. Also I am pretty sure more companies recruit engineers from Penn State than Cornell. Chances of getting a job could be higher by going to a state school.

I don't think switching will have as much an impact on your GPA as you might think though. For the early engineering classes, I imagine they ask pretty much the same questions on math and physics tests. Its not like Calculus changes from school to school. I suppose if the tests are really hard, the curving could be different if you are smarter compared to your peers.

Whatever you do, concentrate on getting better grades. If you have to take some extra easy credits to bring up the grades.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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I don't think switching will have as much an impact on your GPA as you might think though. For the early engineering classes, I imagine they ask pretty much the same questions on math and physics tests. Its not like Calculus changes from school to school. I suppose if the tests are really hard, the curving could be different if you are smarter compared to your peers.

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Very much agree with this. Even if your GPA did matter to your employer, it's probably not going to matter on your second job. Just look for a new job after 3 years.

The easiest way to get an MBA is on an "exceutive" program, aka night school. Most schools won't care what your undergrad GPA was, just that you graduated. They just want your money. Also, many employers will reimburse your tuition, although some will insist you take an engineering discipline.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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5 years down the road nobody will care what my GPA is or what school I graduated from.

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FYP ...

I was one of four people from my high school class to get a degree in chemical engineering.

I attended a large (albeit somewhat selective) state university. The other three got their degrees from, respectively, Penn, MIT, and (coincidentally) Cornell.

We caught up at our 5-year HS reunion and I discovered that not only did I attend the least prestigious school, I finished with the lowest GPA of the four of us.

Our 15-year reunion was a few weeks ago, and I discovered that of the three ChE grads in attendance, I make the highest salary, and it's not close.

I agree with whomever mentioned that most recruiters for first jobs won't give you much of a look unless you can manage a 3.0 GPA (in fact, of those in my graduating class below that number, a distressingly large percentage wound up latching on to government jobs). But ... assuming you've put in 3-4 good years at that first job and have some sort of aptitude for the field, neither any future employer nor anyone else will give a second's thought either to where you went to school or whether you earned a 3.0 or a 4.0. Trust me on this one.

Mook

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Mook, I assume you went into manufactoring and the "smarter" ones went into research?

If thats true then its kinda hard to compare. Granted if all of you went into research or all of you went into manufactoring then i think your observations are more important.

(I plan to go into manufactoring)

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Why do you think transfering schools will increase your GPA substantially?

Gut reaction is to stick with it and work your tail off. Intelligence is certainly important, but I'd argue that results often go to those who are willing to put in the time and effort.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Transferring would help my GPA alot. I have friends at clemson back home who (atleast so far, they are sophmores) say that college has been MUCH easier than high-school (I made almost identical grades to them in high-school). One of them has a 4.0 and another a 3.8. They rarely go to class and i have yet to miss a class. Sure the class content might be similar (im not so sure it is) but the grading is so much easier there.
At the moment the mean grade in most the classes im taking is curved to a B- so you have to be a decent bit about average to make a 3.0. And if there is one thing I have learned since being at Cornell it is that im not above average.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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I guess the real question i have is will i be able to get a decent job with a 2.4 GPA. I try to ask career services but they havent gotten back to me yet

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Now, I'm no statistician, but I'd assume that as a freshman you'd have lots of time to bring your GPA up. Maybe you're just lazy or undisciplined? If thats the case, your question is really, "do you guys think that I should switch to a school where you can be lazy and undisciplined and still make good grades?" Thats a whole other question that I don't know the answer to.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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5 years down the road nobody will care what my GPA is or what school I graduated from.

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Sorry, this is not true in any world.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Spex, its not a matter of laziness, its a matter of intelligence at this point. Before a test a can do all of the homework/practice problems we have been assigned but that isnt enough to make a 3.0, in my experience so far the tests havent been measuring understanding of material but instead have been measuring intelligence and how fast you can do a computation.

All the grading here is comparitive it seems so no matter how well i know the stuff my grade will be based on how smart the people around me are.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Also related to that, in the areas where shear effort can get you grades i do better than almost anyone.

I get better grades on labs and papers than almost anyone I know.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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Transferring would help my GPA alot. I have friends at clemson back home who (atleast so far, they are sophmores) say that college has been MUCH easier than high-school (I made almost identical grades to them in high-school). One of them has a 4.0 and another a 3.8. They rarely go to class and i have yet to miss a class. Sure the class content might be similar (im not so sure it is) but the grading is so much easier there.
At the moment the mean grade in most the classes im taking is curved to a B- so you have to be a decent bit about average to make a 3.0. And if there is one thing I have learned since being at Cornell it is that im not above average.

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I would take that with a huge grain of salt. I find it hard to believe that any college engineering program is easier than high school.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Im sure the actual engineering classes are hard but its the math/physics/chem core classes that are so much easier there.
I saw questions from the physics midterm and it was literally distance = rate x time problems or F = MA.

Or in some multivariable calculus classes you can use a calculator to solve intergrals while in our class you have to do them by hand, etc.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

In technical fields, you are better off going to a state school in most instances. This is especially true if you plan on going to some sort of graduate/medical school. Now, for grad school, then it really matters (though some state schools have top programs, such as Berkeley or CU-Boulder in Physics and Chemistry), but they will pay you to go, so whatever. Medical school matters somewhat, but not as much as most people think. The key for anyone in a technical field is to get a job in a research lab doing some independent work. You'll find a prof you like and go do some work for him. Try to publish a paper or two. It's fun, you can get course credit, and may even get paid. This is your ticket to whatever you want to do (including law school, BTW).

I wish I knew this back when I was in high school, but I didn't. Fortunately for me, I ended up going to a state school anyway and was able to get into every grad school in the country for my PhD. My total education cost (excluding room and board) was 6K, and half of that was for books (bachelor's in 2000). I had a lot of fun in college, and after TA'ing the kids at Stanford (where I did my PhD), I'm really glad I didn't go to one of those pressure cookers for undergrad, because it's a very different college experience.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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Transferring would help my GPA alot. I have friends at clemson back home who (atleast so far, they are sophmores) say that college has been MUCH easier than high-school (I made almost identical grades to them in high-school). One of them has a 4.0 and another a 3.8. They rarely go to class and i have yet to miss a class. Sure the class content might be similar (im not so sure it is) but the grading is so much easier there.
At the moment the mean grade in most the classes im taking is curved to a B- so you have to be a decent bit about average to make a 3.0. And if there is one thing I have learned since being at Cornell it is that im not above average.

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I would take that with a huge grain of salt. I find it hard to believe that any college engineering program is easier than high school.

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A note about GPA's in college:

At expensive private schools, it's almost impossible to get a D or F. If you show up, you will get a C because the school (correctly) view you as a customer. Mommy and Daddy are paying 40K a year to send junior to this school; you will not fail. A's are really tough, though, because the top of the class works very hard. A 3.0 average should be pretty easy if you care at all.

At a public school, people fail, especially in the first couple of years when classes are too big. A's can still be really tough to get; I remember a bio class I took that was on a true bell curve - 7% A, 2% A-, 9% F's. This was the most competitive and terrible class I ever took.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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Im sure the actual engineering classes are hard but its the math/physics/chem core classes that are so much easier there.
I saw questions from the physics midterm and it was literally distance = rate x time problems or F = MA.

Or in some multivariable calculus classes you can use a calculator to solve intergrals while in our class you have to do them by hand, etc.

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Not true in my experience. I helped WRITE the exams in Chem classes and the questions are the same difficulty as the classes that I took. The textbooks are the same, too.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

thanks for the input,

curious whar your thoughts are for something like ChemE where less than half of the graduates go to grad school?

(If i did ever go to grad school it would be for MBA down the road or posibly law if my interests change)

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

My thoughts would be the same as they would be for science - it doesn't matter. Also, do the research - you may just find something you like. In my example, I HATED my physical chemistry classes, and HATED every lab class I took in chemistry even more. I needed a job, though, and ended up working for a phyiscal chemist. I loved it. I had always planned to do something else, like med school or law school, but decided to go to grad school after working there. I'm glad I did. Even if you don't like it too much, at least you learned that, and the experience and recommendation that you will get from sticking it out will punch your ticket for whatever you want to do. No joke.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Yes, the name/reputation of your school matter. Yes, your GPA matters.

But 100 times out of 100, I'm gonna take the higher GPA, lower cost, much better weather, and much much more fun with my friends route of Clemson over Cornell. And it isn't even close.

I worked moderately hard and partied a lot in college -- best time of my life. Now I'm working my ass off in grad school, having little to no fun. Sure I'm getting a PhD from a top program, but in the end, how much is that going to benefit me financially? Probably very little. In industry, it's slightly different, but don't short yourself on "the college experience" for anything.

[/guy who wants to be back in college rant]

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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Transferring would help my GPA alot. I have friends at clemson back home who (atleast so far, they are sophmores) say that college has been MUCH easier than high-school (I made almost identical grades to them in high-school). One of them has a 4.0 and another a 3.8. They rarely go to class

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The accuracy of this is all highly doubtful.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Which part of it dont you believe?

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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Transferring would help my GPA alot. I have friends at clemson back home who (atleast so far, they are sophmores) say that college has been MUCH easier than high-school (I made almost identical grades to them in high-school). One of them has a 4.0 and another a 3.8. They rarely go to class

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These are the parts I find "highly doubtful".

EDIT: I didn't say I don't "believe" it. But the accuracy is highly doubtful. Plus, they are only in their 2nd year for Pete's sake.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

I went to Cornell. Computer Science yo

(1) ***MAKE SURE*** to sign up for engineering co-op sophomore year. This will assure you of a job if the market is at all decent.

(2) Cornell alum in positions to hire have mad loyalty. The whole winter-on-the-hill thing.

(3) I'll make a debatable statement, and say the quality of your education will be better. This will have more of an impact on your career than ANYTHING else. The fact that you can do your job.

(4) Classes are not that challenging if you have any aptitude and if you actually care about your field. If you can't get a 3.0 you may consider not becoming a chemical engineer. It's not even close to being too late.

(5) Higher numbered courses are higher grades than freshman year weed-out courses. The work gets harder, but you get smarter. Start your homework early. Go to office hours. Ask questions. Read the text. I know that these are crazy concepts to undergrads, but try it out.

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

Thats understandable, i guess this is a pointless arguement anyway.

Thanks for the input though, its good to hear what otehr people think

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

thanks for the input, i think im sorta realizing what some of my problem is.

I took a bunch of APs where my teacehers taught to the test (meaning i scored higher than my actual knowledge of the subject) so Im now in classes i probaly wasnt really completly prepared for. I do feel like i have been catching up to everyone else somewhat so maybe i will do better on my finals than im expecting

Re: Career Question- State School vs. Big Private
 

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5 years down the road nobody will care what my GPA is or what school I graduated from.

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Sorry, this is not true in any world.

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Are you kidding? From 5 years after graduation to the present? I doubt if I've been asked three times in that span where I attended college by the world at large, much less by prospective employers or headhunters. (Which is still more than I've been asked about my undergraduate GPA in that span, by a factor of infinity in fact.)

Once you've been out in the workforce 5+ years, only two things matter to the vast majority of companies:
(1) Do you have whatever specialized skillset(s) your prospective employer requires?
(2) Does the job require an advanced degree and/or previous experience in the field and, if so, do you have it?

That's about it.

Mook