WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

Never know what to do in these hands WA/WB hands. In limit I calldown. Here do I have to fold with no read (only 20 hands vs villain)?
Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $21.90
UTG+1: $34.20
Hero: $36.55
Button: $11.00
SB: $23.85
BB: $25.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4.15, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $3</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $9</font>, Hero ...?

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

Not a nice spot. I tend to fold here because I have lost a lot already calling down such hands. The only alternative I see is calling and folding the turn UI, but I think even that is bad.

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

grunch

i don't see why this has to be a better hand. it could be a semibluff with a gutshot, a flush draw, or a combo like A4 or A5. we're getting 2.66:1 immediate with slightly more than a psb remaining and position. i call and re-evaluate.

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

"why is UTG raising here" i'm wondering. what did he limp in with and what's he doing with it now.

b/c he has you crushed? 54 / 32 / A3 / A2 / ??

to price you out of a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flush draw?

some other reason(s)?

...if you call here, it's $22.15 in the pot at the turn and UTG has $11.65 left, so we can expect him to be all-in on a turn bet, right?

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
grunch

i don't see why this has to be a better hand. it could be a semibluff with a gutshot, a flush draw, or a combo like A4 or A5. we're getting 2.66:1 immediate with slightly more than a psb remaining and position. i call and re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.... except for the 'grunch' part.

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

Just so you know, I would not ever consider this a WA/WB situation. He could have any number of draws and is thus not WB most likely. A real WA/WB is like when you have AA on a board of K-2-2. But, aside from that, what the people have said in front of me sounds good.

Semi-related: The hardest part of my transition from limit to NL was top pair hands. The sooner I realized they really sucked the better off I was. As limit players we waaay overestimate them. Most money from NL comes from the big hands in big pots, not razor thin value bets as can be the case in limit.

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

fold unless u have a serious serious reason not to... with no read thats definitely not a reason to proceed... calling here will be very -EV. I dont think this is a good spot to call and see what villain does on the next street becuz most villains wont cr worse As (or even better ones very often if the played them this way preflop) and fds semi bluffs will probably still move u off the hand with a decent sized turn bet and most players arent cring air here then ck folding the turn enough where we should take a card off ( I do tho probably [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] tho id never limp pre)

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

"I dont think this is a good spot to call and see what villain does on the next street"


jstill, i disagree. call bc, most will freeze up on the turn with their semibluff figuring you for the ace. call, fold if villain bets turn. bet if v checks. and check behind river.

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

From what I have been picking up and learning with my transition to NL is that of small hands are for small pots and big for big pots. AJo is a small hand and probably should not even be raised preflop. But since you did, I probably would check behind on the flop and see what transpires on the turn which would probably be calling. This is to keep the pot small, plus you can use your position on villain.

I think this is hand where you need to be keeping the pot small and not building a pot.

I am folding the check raise, it looks like it means either a "I got him" or a "I am gonna make you pay for your semibluff." Plus you have nothing to continue with other than 5 outs for two pair or trips. And those outs have to be discounted with the heart draw. Limit its an auto call down. NL your going to be paying heavily for it.

Is this correct line of thinking?

Re: WA/WB calldown in limit. Fold in NL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
grunch

i don't see why this has to be a better hand. it could be a semibluff with a gutshot, a flush draw, or a combo like A4 or A5. we're getting 2.66:1 immediate with slightly more than a psb remaining and position. i call and re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]
No point doing that. If we call here, the pot will be $22 and Villain will have $11. The turn will be an insta-shove with whatever he has; if we have no intention of calling that then we have no business calling the flop c/r, and if we have every intention to call that then we might as well shove now.

Hero should have never made the flop bet. If Villain(s) had anything worth calling $3 there, then they will have put in a significant portion of their stacks (almost 1/6 for BB, just over 1/5 for UTG) and are thus committed to showdown regardless of whether they have Hero beat or just have a draw to beat him.

I don't like the idea of giving them free cards, either, but if they have a draw they're already in too deep. If you feel you must bet this flop, then $2 should work; if UTG triples it and you call you're then looking at a $16 turn pot with $14 and change left in his stack, so if he pushes there it's an easier fold.

Ideally, IM newbie O, Hero should have either overlimped or made a more uncallable raise preflop. As played, Hero's built a big pot without a big hand, and this is the price he pays.