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-   -   Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=469)

adanthar 10-20-2005 12:40 AM

Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I don't pretend to know everything about sats, but they are my strongest game, and I've made bankrolls from scratch on 4 separate sites solely through qualifying for big ticket stuff or taking the money very cheaply. I am gonna make some fairly big assertions here that I don't want to take the time to/sometimes can't prove, but believe to be right:

-When you understand how the mid and late game in a multiple seat awarding satellite works, your edge is *far* greater than in a sat which only awards one seat [I think this has to do with LAG's and calling stations accidentally playing correctly more often in the latter];
-Your $/hour is far higher in events with bigger buyins that take less time (duh), and, less obviously, award more seats;
-As a minor aside, if you are trying to qualify for something *very* cheaply or build a bankroll, the Party Steps (especially miniSteps) are your friend, much more than you would possibly expect*;
-Related to the first point, your edge in a sat that pays multiple seats over a bad player is exponentially greater than normal. However, the corollary is that a great player has a bigger than normal edge over you. [The specific edge is related to having the table covered in the midgame and open pushing/calling pushes in the endgame.]

[*I am open to a $1000 or more wager that I can make it from a miniStep 1 (5+1) to a miniStep 5 (400+30) playing on $30 or less. I'd make it less than that but I've gotta leave room for aces getting cracked. Of course, this blatantly ignores $/hour.]

Having gone through the random assertions, here's some conclusions that you can draw from them:

1)Satellites are a lot more valuable when they pay lots of seats, don't take very long and have lots of dead money. The Stars turbo rebuys are probably the best sats in online poker.
2)Conversely, sats that pay one seat either reward SNG players over MTT players, are just plain bad value, or both, due to the decreased edge you have over the field and the decreased value of a large stack/proper pushbotting. The Stars regular 33r (which has 400+ players and pays out 1 trip) downright blows.
2.5)Special case: due to the way that good players filter to the top and are then pitted against each other, the double shootouts are horrible and should be avoided at all costs. I firmly believe only the top 8-10 people in a given shootout have any edge at all, and you have a much lower chance than usual of being in that 10. [This is kinda like the Steps, but not really, because in a Step situation you can get into a 430 SNG that pays 5 spots for $30. In a DS you are paying $175 for, at best, around a 17% chance of playing in a $1500 SNG that only pays one spot and will have The Shrike and four other equally skilled guys in it. That deal sucks.]
3)I dunno, I said this guide would be quick so insert your own conclusions here. I'll just close it out with this: if I was offered a choice between a 1000 player field that paid out 100 seats and a 10 player field that paid one, I would pay three times the vig to play in the first one. Yes, I honestly think the difference is that great.

mikeymer 10-20-2005 12:45 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I'm interested to see what you have to say about late game MTT strategy in a satellite such as the 640 satellite to Atlantis... When I was in this tournament, 11 seats payed and I was 4th in chips with 18 to go.

Could I fold out here? I played pretty weak, but DIDNT fold out and lost chips, and eventually lost the seat... I didn't have a good strategy for this stage of the game.

Any insight would be appreciated, thanks -Mike

Exitonly 10-20-2005 12:48 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I really wish i had read this, before blowing 3k in doubleshootouts... at first i thought the looked like a good value, but the variancec is huge, and the 2nd table you play at, is not an easy one. The saturday deal is sooooo much better.


And i just started playing the mini-steps, so glad to read that you think they're not that hard.

Good little summary, Thanks.

LethalRose 10-20-2005 12:51 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
What about this structure

18 players, 1st place gets seat, 2nd gets buyin + a few bucks, 3rd gets buyin back. This is a stars mtt, normal levels.

Marwan 10-20-2005 12:51 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Thanks for the advice...so I'm basically wasting my time trying to qualify to Atlantis through the 3R? That one only gives away like 2-3 seats for a 150-200 person field.. but if you win that you have a legit shot to win a seat in the 615 event (at least top 10 pay).. while the 5.50R to the DS gives away like 20+ usually, but gives you entrance to an event where there's only one winner.. catch-22.

adanthar 10-20-2005 12:52 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
That one is impossible to answer without exact stacks. One thing about playing sats correctly is that when the bubble approaches, you must know the exact stacks, blind positions and tendencies of every player at all times.

Aside from that, there are times when if the guy to your left is playing correctly, you will get free chips no matter what he has. You should use those times liberally, because they are literally the difference between winning and losing very very often. Of course, if he's a donk, he might eventually call with KJo for 2/3 of his stack; like I said, know the tendencies.

In general, though, if you're 4'th with 18 to go, stacks are deep (>15 BB average or so) and you lose the seat, something went very wrong.

IHateKeithSmart 10-20-2005 12:53 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Nice post adanthar. RE: the many seat satellites, I completely agree. The stars $36+3 to the Sunday (1 seat per 6 entries) is my favorite satellite (this structure in particular - 6 to 1 - Bodog also has a low $ one).

My initial impression of the steps (many months ago) seems to be the opposite of yours, but I trust your experience. Maybe I will give them another shot.

adanthar 10-20-2005 12:54 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I have not played those but would suspect that unless the people in that tournament really really wanted their buyins back, your edge would be greater elsewhere.

adanthar 10-20-2005 12:58 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
What I would do myself is play the 5.50r, take the 175 T$ if you win and use it on two tries at the $80 sats to the 650, which pay 1/8. Assuming you are average in the $80's, you will be better off here than in the 3r's, not counting $/hour (which is like a billion times higher going through the 5.50's.)

Marwan 10-20-2005 12:59 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
What I would do myself is play the 5.50r, take the 175 T$ if you win and use it on two tries at the $80 sats to the 650, which pay 1/8. Assuming you are average in the $80's, you will be better off here than in the 3r's, not counting $/hour (which is like a billion times higher going through the 5.50's.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I think that is more of a logical approach.. cuz these 3R's are frustraattting getting down to the end after like 4 hours and coming away with nothing.

cracker9521 10-20-2005 01:00 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Kind of Hijack here, but if you had rakeback on party poker would you get it for each step of the steps tourney? I ask because sometimes I play a mini step when I want a break from ringgames and after 20 or so tables on the first buy in party has made a ridiculous amount of rake off of me.

MrTimCaum 10-20-2005 01:09 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
What do you think is the best way to qualify for the big Sunday MTT on Stars?

Firefly 10-20-2005 01:16 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I was going to do like this exact post.
Of course, i was going to have a snappier title.
I do believe that the variance for the DS is humongous. I'm a good/decnt SnG player but playing against that field is crazy.

What i'm doing is the 3+Rebuys (to the 215) and then using those $T to try to satelite into the 615. I feel i have an edge in the 615 due to the deep stacks and my satelite experience. I agree with adanthar for sure I'd rather be in a 100 man tourney paying 10 then 10 paying 1.

Good Post

mikeymer 10-20-2005 01:18 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Yeah, the structure is GREAT in that tourney... I just need some help in my late game play...

adanthar 10-20-2005 01:22 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I've built up a decent Stars roll from the 11r turbos. The 36+3's might also be good, I'm not sure.

Jurollo 10-20-2005 01:22 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
Kind of Hijack here, but if you had rakeback on party poker would you get it for each step of the steps tourney? I ask because sometimes I play a mini step when I want a break from ringgames and after 20 or so tables on the first buy in party has made a ridiculous amount of rake off of me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

Firefly 10-20-2005 01:22 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I didn't see alot of your, and it didn't help to have Sirio11 on your right, but when you reach the bubblish area and you aren't in immediate danger, you should just be picking on shortstacks in position and folding anything but QQ+ and AK probally. Shortstacks CAN'T push back at you without a hand (unless they suck) because the bubble=0 and next =12000, everyone understands that.
sat bubbles are nerve racking experiences and playing the player matters even more than the cards imho

Exitonly 10-20-2005 01:25 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
The 36+3's might also be good

[/ QUOTE ]


They're great.

I dunno about the rebuy ones, that just doesnt seem smart, but the 36 freezeouts, are incredible easy.

IHateKeithSmart 10-20-2005 01:29 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've built up a decent Stars roll from the 11r turbos. The 36+3's might also be good, I'm not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the 11r turbos are nice. Turbos in general stress me out too much, though, which is why i stick with the $36+3 freezeout most of the time.

adanthar 10-20-2005 01:30 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't see alot of your, and it didn't help to have Sirio11 on your right, but when you reach the bubblish area and you aren't in immediate danger, you should just be picking on shortstacks in position

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is why the sats are so profitable. That's a very intuitive guess. It's also totally wrong.

Say you've got 18 people left, 15 go, stacks vary from 10K to 50K and the blinds are 500/1000. You have 20K on the button. Would you rather push into a 13K stack or into a 25K stack?

Answer: assuming both players know anything about poker, it's the 25K stack, and it isn't even remotely close.

billyjex 10-20-2005 01:37 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I like the double shootouts. Maybe I feel I play shorthanded better than most. Of course, many of the DS's have tough competition, but I can already tell the level is decreasing as many of the best players have won their seat.

IHateKeithSmart 10-20-2005 01:37 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
it isn't even remotely close.

[/ QUOTE ]

DAMN!!! I have never seen this modifier used with this phrase. I have some suspicions at your reasoning, but can you elaborate?

EnderIII 10-20-2005 01:50 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]


See, this is why the sats are so profitable. That's a very intuitive guess. It's also totally wrong.

Say you've got 18 people left, 15 go, stacks vary from 10K to 50K and the blinds are 500/1000. You have 20K on the button. Would you rather push into a 13K stack or into a 25K stack?

Answer: assuming both players know anything about poker, it's the 25K stack, and it isn't even remotely close.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is brilliant, thank you.

BadgerPro 10-20-2005 01:58 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Mini Steps here I come!

curtains 10-20-2005 02:07 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 

I agree that doubleshootouts are crap, I only play them because Im bored and playing other stuff and need some high buyin MTT to go along with it. The $33 rebuys are total crap too as is any tourney that awards just 1-2 spots. The normal $600 buyins on weekend are much better.

NoahSD 10-20-2005 02:13 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't see alot of your, and it didn't help to have Sirio11 on your right, but when you reach the bubblish area and you aren't in immediate danger, you should just be picking on shortstacks in position

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is why the sats are so profitable. That's a very intuitive guess. It's also totally wrong.

Say you've got 18 people left, 15 go, stacks vary from 10K to 50K and the blinds are 500/1000. You have 20K on the button. Would you rather push into a 13K stack or into a 25K stack?

Answer: assuming both players know anything about poker, it's the 25K stack, and it isn't even remotely close.

[/ QUOTE ]

explanation?

Lloyd 10-20-2005 02:17 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
It should be pretty obvious. Just think it through (for me, at least, that helps with understanding a concept more than just reading the answer).

A_Junglen 10-20-2005 02:19 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't see alot of your, and it didn't help to have Sirio11 on your right, but when you reach the bubblish area and you aren't in immediate danger, you should just be picking on shortstacks in position

[/ QUOTE ]

25k stack doesn't have to take has much risk as the 13k stack. Both of their mental states differ, as the 13k stack knows they likely have to win a pot to advance, while the 25k is in fold-to-advance mode.
See, this is why the sats are so profitable. That's a very intuitive guess. It's also totally wrong.

Say you've got 18 people left, 15 go, stacks vary from 10K to 50K and the blinds are 500/1000. You have 20K on the button. Would you rather push into a 13K stack or into a 25K stack?

Answer: assuming both players know anything about poker, it's the 25K stack, and it isn't even remotely close.

[/ QUOTE ]

explanation?

[/ QUOTE ]

25k stack doesn't have to take has much risk as the 13k stack. Both of their mental states differ, as the 13k stack knows they likely have to win a pot to advance, while the 25k is in fold-to-advance mode.

Melchiades 10-20-2005 02:20 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Lemme give it a shot. The medium big stack is feeling safe and don't need to risk getting crippled, even if he has a real strong hand. He can probably fold/steal his way into the spots. The shortish stack knows he needs to gamble once before he is safe.

Correct?

Lloyd 10-20-2005 02:25 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Nice answer. The question, of course is whether or not you looked here ^^^^^^^^^^ [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

REL18 10-20-2005 02:28 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
How can u be so blind obviously the guy with 25k nows hes making it into the money (ie ps tourney money or seat) why the heck would he call. Contradictorily the guy with 13k needs to win some pots to get in.

IHateKeithSmart 10-20-2005 02:36 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Well, this is my thinking as well, but perhaps in the low $ satellites I play in I just don't see as much 'logical' satellite thinking as I would expect.

In adanthar's example, ss still has 13BB. In the satellites I play, I very often see people waiting til 4-6BB for desperation (i.e. the thinking that adanthar's post presumes). Also in the satellites I play, safe mid/large stacks are always making tremendously bad calls of all ins with hands like KTs and A9o.

Melchiades 10-20-2005 02:38 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
While we are on the subject of satellites. Anyone care to give a few pointers on the right strategy for pushbotting close to the bubble.

Assume a situation with 20 seats, 25 players left. 15 stacks that are of a safe stack (if it is possible to say that) and the rest who probably need to gamble, or at least need to steal a few times. Do you more or less push any two when it's folded to you and there are a safe stack in the BB.

I'm assuming it's more important who is in the blinds and the amount of "unsafe" stacks between you and the blinds than what your cards are. Correct? Any other general tips for the bubble situation.

SumZero 10-20-2005 03:13 AM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
I think it depends on how safe the BB person is. If they have a huge stack such that they are safe even if they called you and lost and then called someone else and lost then they can play king maker and call people when they feel like it. You want someone whose status would change if, and only if, they called you and lost.

The short stacks status changes if he calls you on both a win and a lose. A huge stack may not change on either outcome if he calls. Some one who will be crippled if he calls and loses but will not be any better off if he calls and wins is ideal.

PennDisc 10-20-2005 12:08 PM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
[ QUOTE ]
I like the double shootouts. Maybe I feel I play shorthanded better than most. Of course, many of the DS's have tough competition, but I can already tell the level is decreasing as many of the best players have won their seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the DS's too but it may be results oriented thinking... I've been lucky enough to win 2 out of the 5 that I've played lifetime. Still, I've met a few people who've had very good success in these (biggest sample size though was one guy who was 4 for 40). Whenever I've played there have been at least 3-4 completely clueless players on my first table and a couple of these even on the final table. There must be some kind of overlay for good players...

mikeymer 10-20-2005 02:20 PM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Andathar, every once in a while there is a post, instant message, etc about poker that is incredibly clear to me and will immediately help me in future tournaments, and will make me a better player... this is the first in a while, thank you.

-Mike

adanthar 10-20-2005 02:25 PM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
It's adanthar, but thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

mikeymer 10-20-2005 02:27 PM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Whitey 10-20-2005 02:41 PM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Hi Adanthar

Nice post, I'm curious as to when you switch off though?

I play sats often and consistently reach the bubble stages with a stack that is hovering around the bubble poition. (i.e 20 left/ 15 seats, me 10-14th position) This is more so in turbos.

This is because when I get a reasonable stack size, I'm playing very very tight,( when I say reasonable it's close if I'm making a seat or not) Do you continue to play when you have a decent position and only switch off when its a lock for the seat?

P.S Are you still pushing at the end of Turbos due to all the stalling and the fact you can bust out even if your in the top 10 in chips?

woodguy 10-20-2005 02:45 PM

Re: Quick guide to satellite qualifying for big events
 
Very nice of you to post this.

Many, if they came to the same conclusion, would not.

I guess the $5R to the DS won't be as fishy....damn. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Regards,
Woodguy


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