Tells
 

Ok, so perhaps this belongs into the B&M forum. Or the beginners forum... or, well this forum.
I was playing 4/8 last night. I was down 300$ and started to do a great comeback. I was only at -40$ at the point this hand happened:

Button is semi pro. You guys probably don't know him, but he has made plenty of WSOP final tables and stuff. Gamblor at heart, can play Any Two Cards, but is extremely well post-flop. His main game is PLO8, but that doesn't mean that he's bad at Hold'em.

Hero is CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 limps, hero raises, Button 3-bets, blinds fold, limpers call, Hero calls.

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Check, Hero bets, Button raises, limpers fold, Hero calls

Turn: Some blank like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button checks.

Mhmm, he's either on a draw too, or has an underpair and is glad to see a free card on WA/WB. I'm gonna bet the river no matter if the flush gets there to represent the Q (which is why I bet the flop originally, right?).

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets... Villain...

He thinks for a few moments, then says: "Very good thinking, trying to get me off my underpair. But you see, you bet without even looking at the river card. That King scares the hands that have a Q, so you would have to have thought for a second before betting it. Also, if you DID hit the king, you still have to LOOK at the river... You just bet without really looking at the river. I call" Pocket 9s, nice hand.

Obviously I'm a tell box. And often I sit there in a live game and think I'm a tell box. How do you work on tells. I am kinda good detecting tells in others, but when it comes to me... perhaps I'm really bad.

How do you work on YOUR tells?

Re: Tells
 

why donk flop?
why bet river?

Re: Tells
 

oh as for live tells, I wouldn't know if I have any. But my usual word of advice is to have a couple drinks, have fun, chat & have a few jokes with ur opps, esp the donating donks. I try to be relaxed & look like I'm there only to have a good time.

Re: Tells
 

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why donk flop?

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Equity! Not against button, but against the other two limpers. They usually call one bet. Ok, that plan backfired when button raised

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why bet river?

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Bluff. I have successfully bluffed this guy before and will do it once every 10 hands. He almost folded (which I implied by the "..."). I am known in this game as pretty tight and usually bet it when I have it. I don't bluff calling stations, button is NOT a calling station, he can be put off a hand.

Re: Tells
 

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oh as for live tells, I wouldn't know if I have any. But my usual word of advice is to have a couple drinks, have fun, chat & have a few jokes with ur opps, esp the donating donks. I try to be relaxed & look like I'm there only to have a good time.

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This only works if you only go there about once a month, right. Eventually they'll catch on. At my local club, they have... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Tells
 

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why donk flop?

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Equity! Not against button, but against the other two limpers. They usually call one bet. Ok, that plan backfired when button raised



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DUCY that plan backfired?

As for tells, he must be pretty good to catch on to that (not looking at the river). I would start doing the 1,2,3 count before every decision. Just count it out in your head, then bet, call, raise or fold. You must do it, even when you know your action. I use it at my home game when I think someone has something on me. They are soon lost again. mmmwahahahah

Re: Tells
 

hmm I actually find it very unlikely that you did not look at the river before you bet since you had the nut flush draw...

I really wouldn't worry about giving off too many tells playing live. People are just not that observant. I do try to do the same things every time though. I never look at my cards until it is my turn to act and I always keep a chip on my cards until that time comes. I try to follow the action closely. Yesterday I was in the 5-200 spread game and the BB thought he was UTG and tried to raise to $20. A few people actually noticed, but the CO, BTN, and SB did not. The CO limped, BTN completed (button has a blind in this game), SB completed, and then BB raised.. LOL all 3 grumbled and only thh SB called and folded on the flop. I chuckled a bit. Also before I act, I tend to glimpse at the player to my left. They will sometimes tip their action by holding enough chips for a call or raise.

Re: Tells
 

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Equity! Not against button, but against the other two limpers. They usually call one bet. Ok, that plan backfired when button raised.

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He's the preflop 3-bettor. What makes you think he's NOT going to raise your bet NOR bet out himself when you check???
This is an obvious check-raise, and that represents the Q even more than just donking, imho.


As far as tells go, some good advice has already been given. Don't look at your cards until it's actually your turn to act, and always give it a few seconds before every action, even if that action is already clear to you...

And the laid back "simply enjoying myself" attitude really works, even against opponents you play regularly. If you're well liked at the table, they'll mind less that they lose to you.

Maybe not a good comparison, but if you've ever watched televised high stakes poker (I know that's NL, but still). Who would you rather lose your chips to and still remain at the table? Daniel "positive attitude" Negreanu or Phil "tilty explosive - even if it's just for show" Helmuth? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Tells
 

Put me in the camp that advocates checking to the preflop reraiser. Like you said, the limpers will call one bet, but likely not two. So, let's go for a c/r and trap them rather than force them out.

As far as tells, I tend to agree with Bravos. Lots of people don't notice them and, even if they do, they don't use these tells to make a better play. (On one occasion, I check-raised another girl after hitting my straight on the river. After I raised her, she asked "did you hit your straight?" I responded "Yep. I did." She paid off the raise anyway. And while this may not have been my best form, it does illustrate a point; even when you give a sure-fire tell, a lot of people at low stakes tend not to use that tell to their advantage.)

Re: Tells
 

I have only been playing live for a laughably short time. I have considered whether tells are costing me but decided the games I play in are mostly populated by unaware players. Here I some things I do do to try and minimize the problem.

Handle the cards and chips exactly the same way whether I am calling, folding, raising, I have a routine kind of like a golfer setting up for a shot, I don't start my routine until it is my turn, and I use the routine no matter what the situation is. Actually I have two routines and use them sporadically. I am pretty deadpan during all hands but try to be conversational between hands.

Also this guy is more of a chatterbox than you are a tell box for sure. He is clearly thinking and wants everyone to know how smart he is. You can use that effectively in the future I am sure.

In the final analysis though I can't justify playing with really strong players in a raked game. I avoid him unless it's the only choice and the other players are soft (looks like some of them may be) Then I avoid HU situations. I wouldn't have avoided this one though.

Overall nice hand and worth a shot in that pot. I hope you will keep posting live play situations. The B&M forum usually offers little in the way of strategy, mostly rules and such but I want to learn to play better live and I think I can learn from your experiences.

Re: Tells
 

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He thinks for a few moments, then says: "Very good thinking, trying to get me off my underpair. But you see, you bet without even looking at the river card. That King scares the hands that have a Q, so you would have to have thought for a second before betting it. Also, if you DID hit the king, you still have to LOOK at the river... You just bet without really looking at the river. I call" Pocket 9s, nice hand.


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bella, you may never be in this situation with this guy again, but if you are, after his little speech, gently smile, look at the dealer and calmly say "I raise" and put your chips in the pot and read the "semi pro". If he is as good as he thinks he is, he will make the "lay down of the year", you will show your bluff and be in his head forever. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Tells
 

Good post- maybe he will avoid her then so she won't have to avoid him!!

Re: Tells
 

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He thinks for a few moments, then says: "Very good thinking, trying to get me off my underpair. But you see, you bet without even looking at the river card. That King scares the hands that have a Q, so you would have to have thought for a second before betting it. Also, if you DID hit the king, you still have to LOOK at the river... You just bet without really looking at the river. I call" Pocket 9s, nice hand.


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bella, you may never be in this situation with this guy again, but if you are, after his little speech, gently smile, look at the dealer and calmly say "I raise" and put your chips in the pot and read the "semi pro". If he is as good as he thinks he is, he will make the "lay down of the year", you will show your bluff and be in his head forever. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Benny, how is she raising here? She bet, he gave his speechand called.

Re: Tells
 

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He thinks for a few moments, then says: "Very good thinking, trying to get me off my underpair. But you see, you bet without even looking at the river card. That King scares the hands that have a Q, so you would have to have thought for a second before betting it. Also, if you DID hit the king, you still have to LOOK at the river... You just bet without really looking at the river. I call" Pocket 9s, nice hand.


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bella, you may never be in this situation with this guy again, but if you are, after his little speech, gently smile, look at the dealer and calmly say "I raise" and put your chips in the pot and read the "semi pro". If he is as good as he thinks he is, he will make the "lay down of the year", you will show your bluff and be in his head forever. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Benny, even if it's not possible in this situation, I've done that. He can make laydowns and he knows I can bluff. I have shown him my bluffs before. He does not tilt, only once in 3 years have I seen him tilt, he's too smart to do that. After a bluff-raise of stuff like that, when I show him, he actually smiles and all. Really, no tilting.

I love playing WITH him, because fishies do tilt against him, try to take shots against him. They become loose calling stations. "Hey he raised me with 5 high" (duh, he only showed you that weird hand). LOL, the one hand they showed from him on ESPN's main event coverage he limped with 79o and everybody at my local club remembers that hand (sigh, people always just remember pre-flop, but forget about post-flop), but not that he actually got to the Top 100 in the event and beyond. Perfect LAG player. I dread the HU pots, but hey, whatcha gonna do. Actually, the HU pots are really a challenge and I don't think I'm necessarily bad at them, if it weren't for my tells. We had a guy losing about 800$ on this table, which was the reason of my comeback (which fizzled in the end, but that's ok).

Re: Tells
 

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Benny, how is she raising here? She bet, he gave his speechand called.

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She says she raises. And then he folds even though she is not allowed to raise because he is so full of himself. Lay-down of the millenium!

Re: Tells
 

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Benny, how is she raising here? She bet, he gave his speechand called.

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She says she raises. And then he folds even though she is not allowed to raise because he is so full of himself. Angleshot of the millenium!

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FYP, btw, this guy is not a moron. Why would he muck just because she says raise when she can't? I mean, even most morons won't fall for this angleshot.

Re: Tells
 

In response to your main question this is what I do as well.

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Handle the cards and chips exactly the same way whether I am calling, folding, raising, I have a routine kind of like a golfer setting up for a shot, I don't start my routine until it is my turn, and I use the routine no matter what the situation is. Actually I have two routines and use them sporadically. I am pretty deadpan during all hands but try to be conversational between hands.

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When I play in one of my regular home tourneys (no casino experience). I normally know my action before it's my turn but I still move the same everytime. When I started I would count in my head to 7 before taking an action if I allready know the action I intend to take. This masks the paused/imediate responses. I read somewhere that counting in your head was Chris Ferguson's method, but can not confirm that I just know it has worked for me. I don't count much anymore because I have become accusomed to making that pause naturally. It has also saved me a few decisions as I will notice something in those few seconds that changes my action.

In the preflop round I wait till it's my turn to act, look at my hand and instead of counting I repeat the hand (including suits) in my head 5 times. This helps to keep me from pulling the "three clubs flopped but do I have the ace of clubs or spades". I will still look at my hole cards ocasionally during a hand but it's more for a false tell since my home game is a bunch of muppets. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Tells
 

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Benny, how is she raising here? She bet, he gave his speechand called.

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She says she raises. And then he folds even though she is not allowed to raise because he is so full of himself. Angleshot of the millenium!

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FYP, btw, this guy is not a moron. Why would he muck just because she says raise when she can't? I mean, even most morons won't fall for this angleshot.

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I think he levelled you.


When I play live at non-electronic poker rooms, I usually look at each person in turn even if I know damn well I'm the first to act. In addition to buying just enough time to make it look like I've at least given consideration to whatever card has just dropped, occasionally I'll catch someone making the "goddammit I would have caught my straight/trips/flush if I had stayed in" face and I'll know that my hand has a better chance of still being best. Additionally, I may look like a complete and utter tool when I wear sunglasses at a 3/6 or 4/8 table, but it allows me to look like I'm focusing my attention on the board when in reality, my eyes are looking elsewhere.

Also, bella, he was calling that bet no matter how long you took to look at that card. A busted flush draw is near the top of his range for you given the action thus far. You're not check/calling any made hand on the turn, so when he checks behind he's practically obligated to call the river unless it's a real killer like K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. As mentioned before, he's trying to impress the table to get everyone else to develop FPS in later pots against him.

And why is any pro playing 4/8 anyway??