check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

2-4 game, aggro opponent HU, i call in SB w/357xx, catch 2 on 2nd draw, 4 on river... opponent bet out 1st and 2nd draws.
I check for 3rd draw, he pulls fastball and also checks [also drew 1 on 3rd draw tho]. I have found this true in
the majority of the cash games i play [.50-1.00 to 2-4]. Would it be more correct to bet out my strong pat 7's after 3rd draw? [if i catch on 2nd draw, i usually mix it up a bit, leaning towards betting out w/ 2+ opponents.

P.S.see Seb- i DO post here!
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

of course bet, I think it was me against you in this hand.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

I think the check-raise is fine. If you're check-raising here, though, you need to remember to check-raise bluff occasionally.

In fact, my game-theory solver for 1:1 draws says you should check-raise a variety of hands, not just #1.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

please give us the exact action pre-first draw, your explanation is confusing.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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please give us the exact action pre-first draw, your explanation is confusing.

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called a raise[2bets] from Seb in the cutoff

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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please give us the exact action pre-first draw, your explanation is confusing.

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called a raise[2bets] from Seb in the cutoff

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Don't do that. Even with 1/2 blinds.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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please give us the exact action pre-first draw, your explanation is confusing.

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called a raise[2bets] from Seb in the cutoff

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thats a fold, not a call. Feel free to call in the BB as a blind defense, but in the SB your gonna get hurt when you call there.

on the river bet your hand. Your going to make more $$$ in the long run by betting the river than you will be c/r.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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please give us the exact action pre-first draw, your explanation is confusing.

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called a raise[2bets] from Seb in the cutoff

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thats a fold, not a call. Feel free to call in the BB as a blind defense, but in the SB your gonna get hurt when you call there.

on the river bet your hand. Your going to make more $$$ in the long run by betting the river than you will be c/r.

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I think you need to have some river check-raises in your range. Otherwise your opponent will take you to value-town whenever you check (unless, of course, you check-fold a lot which is also bad.)

I wrote a tool a while back that solves (using game theory) last-round betting after a 1:1 draw, over a range of hands. (This is different from previous results which examined just a known draw for each player.) Approximate game-theoretic solution for 5 bets in the pot:

check-fold: 16.8%
check-call: 36.4%
check-raise-fold: 1.9%
check-raise-call: 5.9%
check-raise-raise: 0.9%
bet-fold: 10.7%
bet-call: 22.5%
bet-raise-fold: 0.8%
bet-raise-call: 4.2%

With 75432, this particular solution is betting about 1/3 of the time but check-raising the other 2/3 of time.

Now, you might argue that you exploit your opponents' tendencies better by betting always, but I think you will actually get paid off a lot by check-raising.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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With 75432, this particular solution is betting about 1/3 of the time but check-raising the other 2/3 of time.

Now, you might argue that you exploit your opponents' tendencies better by betting always, but I think you will actually get paid off a lot by check-raising.

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Aren't you missing the times that the villain checks behind, which sadly is quite often?

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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With 75432, this particular solution is betting about 1/3 of the time but check-raising the other 2/3 of time.

Now, you might argue that you exploit your opponents' tendencies better by betting always, but I think you will actually get paid off a lot by check-raising.

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Aren't you missing the times that the villain checks behind, which sadly is quite often?

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I dunno, are you counting all the times it goes bet/fold on the end and you don't get paid off anyway? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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With 75432, this particular solution is betting about 1/3 of the time but check-raising the other 2/3 of time.

Now, you might argue that you exploit your opponents' tendencies better by betting always, but I think you will actually get paid off a lot by check-raising.

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Aren't you missing the times that the villain checks behind, which sadly is quite often?

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I dunno, are you counting all the times it goes bet/fold on the end and you don't get paid off anyway? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I think those times are rare if the villain is pat (its hard to understand the OP, but I think thats what he was saying), he is usually checking behind with with more weak hands which he would not call a c/r for, yet call on the river with some of the hands which he would check behind with.

Can you explain your solver equation, perhaps that would help us find the middle ground.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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With 75432, this particular solution is betting about 1/3 of the time but check-raising the other 2/3 of time.

Now, you might argue that you exploit your opponents' tendencies better by betting always, but I think you will actually get paid off a lot by check-raising.

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Aren't you missing the times that the villain checks behind, which sadly is quite often?

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I dunno, are you counting all the times it goes bet/fold on the end and you don't get paid off anyway? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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People fold?

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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People fold?

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They fold sometimes in Stars 2-4. You see bluffs so rarely there its not a bad play.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

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With 75432, this particular solution is betting about 1/3 of the time but check-raising the other 2/3 of time.

Now, you might argue that you exploit your opponents' tendencies better by betting always, but I think you will actually get paid off a lot by check-raising.

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Aren't you missing the times that the villain checks behind, which sadly is quite often?

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I dunno, are you counting all the times it goes bet/fold on the end and you don't get paid off anyway? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I think those times are rare if the villain is pat (its hard to understand the OP, but I think thats what he was saying), he is usually checking behind with with more weak hands which he would not call a c/r for, yet call on the river with some of the hands which he would check behind with.
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OP says that his opponent drew one. I agree that 1:0 is a completely different situation than 1:1 and should be mostly bet.



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Can you explain your solver equation, perhaps that would help us find the middle ground.

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I don't have a simple explanation, I just have an (unpublished) result. When you put the best 26 1-card draws (7432-8763 plus 2345-2456) up against each other, a game-theoretic optimal strategy for the first player is results in the mix summarized above.

Let's see if we can come up with a silly simple example. Suppose there are 5 bets in the pot. Your opponent has 7432 and:

jams his 5's and 6's
bet-call or calls a bet with his 8's and 9's
bet-fold or calls a bet with his T
checks behind or calls a single bet with JQKA
checks behind or folds 2's and 3's
bluff-fold or folds 4's and 7's

How does check-raising 75432 compare with betting it?
Opponent card, Net value of KR (approx)
5, 0
6, 0
8, +1
9, +1
T, 0
J, -1
Q, -1
K, -1
A, -1
2, 0
3, 0
4, +1
7, +1

That would make it a dead heat between check-raising and betting out. If he calls more (say with deuces) then you are better off betting. If he bets more (any pair, or jacks) or bet/calls more (with a T) then you are better off check-raising.

Re: check raise w/ a wheel/#2/#3 after 3rd draw
 

Checkraising is fun and should make money, but the important thing isn't the value. It's all the OOP free showdowns you get later.