5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over water
 

From six retired admirals and five retired generals:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Global warming poses a "serious threat to America's national security" and the U.S. likely will be dragged into fights over water and other shortages, top retired military leaders warn in a new report.

.....

But the instability will happen sometime, Root agreed.

"We're going to have a war over water," Root said. "There's just not going to be enough water around for us to have for us to need to live with and to provide for the natural environment."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/15/war...rss_topstories

I really can't comment on this until I read the report. Looks like it will be a fun read though. I wonder what scams the nay sayers will be accusing these retired military officers of.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what scams the nay sayers will be accusing these retired military officers of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incompetence? Lack of qualification?

haven't read the report yet either, however
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what scams the nay sayers will be accusing these retired military officers of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incompetence? Lack of qualification?

haven't read the report yet either, however
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Top climate scientists said the report makes sense and increased national security risk is a legitimate global warming side-effect.

CNN doing [censored] reporting like usual didn't specify who the "top scientists" were. It will be interesting to see how many top scientists either have or will endorse this report.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

UN security council is talking about climate change and security this week for the first time as well

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

I think Global Warming has officially jumped the shark.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Global Warming has officially jumped the shark.

[/ QUOTE ]

very reasoned rebuttal.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Global Warming has officially jumped the shark.

[/ QUOTE ]

very reasoned rebuttal.

[/ QUOTE ]

rebuttal? I'm not even sure wtf it means?

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over water
 

It's propaganda pieces like this that make me skeptical of global warming in the first place. If not for this kind of crap, I'd be right on the bandwagon. It actually kind of makes me wonder if maybe the media really is conservative and they just post liberal propaganda like this to make liberals look bad.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Global Warming has officially jumped the shark.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that happened with The Day After Tomorrow.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's propaganda pieces like this that make me skeptical of global warming in the first place. If not for this kind of crap, I'd be right on the bandwagon.

[/ QUOTE ]

so if it wasn't for people talking about the ways that the effects of global warming might play out on a worldwide scale, you'd think it was true?

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's propaganda pieces like this that make me skeptical of global warming in the first place. If not for this kind of crap, I'd be right on the bandwagon.

[/ QUOTE ]

so if it wasn't for people talking about the ways that the effects of global warming might play out on a worldwide scale, you'd think it was true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

why is this or say, reports from scientists that global warming could cause massive die-offs of humans and other species, a "propaganda piece" rather than people trying to come to terms with what be the most substantial problem humans have ever faced?

If you have specific rebuttals then post them, but saying if it wasn't for people saying the consequences would be so [censored] bad, i'd be on the bandwagon is silly when most of the people "on the bandwagon" are there specifically because they believe it is possible for the consequences to be extremely grave

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
why is this or say, reports from scientists that global warming could cause massive die-offs of humans and other species, a "propaganda piece"

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the fact that theories, minority theories are presented as facts that makes it a propaganda piece, among others things.

"The report says that in the next 30 to 40 years there will be wars over water, increased hunger instability from worsening disease"

Huh? Why would there be a water shortage. Not only have I never heard of any kind of consensus belief of a water shortage, but considering the advances in desalinization technology, it's patently absurd.

Similarly with the diseases. Who the hell thinks that diseases are going to run rampant because of global warming?

This article starts off by presenting these two off the wall theories as facts, showing the bias of the contributor to those who are aware of what's being done and scaring the bejesus out of those who aren't.

"Climate change exacerbates already unstable situations,"

Well, since we've established that by this article's definition, "climate change" automatically includes water shortages and rampant disease, this might well be true. Of course, once they go this route, they can no longer make any claims of a consensus of scientists supporting "climate change" as the kind of "climate change" they support is not anything remotely like the type of "climate change" this article is talking about.

At this point, the article continues on in this vein, with everything stemming from the fallacious assumption at the beginning. None of these things takes "generals" to figure out once you've accepted that water shortages and rampant disease are inevitable. The whole purpose of this article is to distract the reader and make them assume that water shortages and rampant disease are inevitable.

Present what you want the reader to believe as a fact and the underlying assumption of the article and then proceed to talk about the inevitable horrors of this fact. This is basic propaganda here, whether or not the fact is true or not! Even if the we really do have water shortages and disease to come, this presentation is still proganda. It's trying to convince people to believe what it wants to believe through trickery rather than through information. Who cares what the results of this water shortage and rampant disease are going to be. The fact that these things would be bad is obvious to even a complete moron, show me why I should believe they're going to happen. Instead, the article is carefully manufactured to convince the reader these things are going to happen without providing any actual evidence. The fact that a so-called neutral news organization gets away with this kind of obvious propaganda is simply appalling.

My favorite part is right at the end:

"Weaver said that over the past years, scientists, who by nature are cautious, have been attacked by conservative activists when warning about climate change. This shows that it's not a liberal-conservative issue, Weaver said."

1. Pure double talk. First it says "conservatives are the bad guys," then it backs off to try to pretend to erase the blatant bias it just espoused by claiming it's "not a liberal-conservative issue."

2. An irrelevant opinion that has no real bearing on the article. Clearly intended to convince the reader that conservatives are the enemy. This is also very clearly the author's opinion and he quoted someone else solely as an effort to pretend a lack of bias.

3. The quotes aren't "quoted"! By using unquoted quotes, it tricks the reader into believing that the statements in question are fact rather than opinion.

All in all, this article is a ridiculous pile of propaganda. Maybe the ideas presented are true, but if you want to convince me, show me facts, not propaganda. Even an ardent supporter of extreme global warming scenarios should be able to see this article for what it is.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

My first thought, as a Canadian living in Toronto, a city on the coast of Lake Ontario:

OH [censored].

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

Some help:

http://www.criticalthinking.org/TGS_...-MediaBias.pdf

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over water
 

[ QUOTE ]
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Global warming poses a "serious threat to America's national security" and the U.S. likely will be dragged into fights over water and other shortages, top retired military leaders warn in a new report.


[/ QUOTE ]


If you stop and reflect this general concept is nothing new, surprising, or even that thought provoking. Humanity has been fighting over resources, arable land, trade and sea routes, strategic access points, and a host of perceived or real precious commodities for millennium. The general concept is age old. I recall reading about the first ever recorded war in Will Durant's Story of Civilization - it was over rocks, diorite if I recall correctly, that a specific brigand King wished to use to make statues of himself with and that diorite just happened to be in someone else's sphere of ownership. Thus a war commenced to acquire that which the King needed to sanctify and preserved for posterity his glory, greed, pride, and ego, all acquired by spilling other peoples blood.

Anyway, I care little about any of this. I’m more concerned about the price of my GE stock and the money to be made from the future apocalypse. Go global warming, and if humanity finally exterminates itself and I can make a profit before the curtain falls that is just Icing on the Cake for me.

And one more thing, everyone better start arming up for the big rumble. You don't want to be left out of all the fun.

Le Misanthrope

Why Should I Care About Their Opinions?
 

Why should I care about their opinions?
The Man-Causes-Global-Warming-Cult (MCGWC) must be getting desperate if they think an endorsement from these nitwits will help their cause......

Re: Why Should I Care About Their Opinions?
 

Alex:

I was referring to the report:

http://securityandclimate.cna.org/report/

not the CNN summary of the report.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by jman220

Ridiculous AC hijack that has nothing to do with the OP. 1 day ban.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

good thread hijack Nielsio.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's the fact that theories ... are presented as facts that makes it a propaganda piece, among others things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you even know what a theory is?

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
States seek war, not peace. And they will take any opportunity they can get.

http://thefreedomchannel.blogspot.co...n-vi-mark.html

[/ QUOTE ]

By your logic, shouldn't they be denying global warming? How would low carbon/alternative/sustainable energy start a war.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

I don't need scientists or generals to tell me that a fixed amount of space + expotential human growth = competition for resources

It's not that hard to figure out

Re: Why Should I Care About Their Opinions?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alex:

I was referring to the report:

http://securityandclimate.cna.org/report/

not the CNN summary of the report.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, nice way to change the subject. Kudos.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's the fact that theories ... are presented as facts that makes it a propaganda piece, among others things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you even know what a theory is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Better than you do, I'm sure.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over water
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't comment on this until I read the report. Looks like it will be a fun read though. I wonder what scams the nay sayers will be accusing these retired military officers of.

[/ QUOTE ]

my guess is that they'll be flamed by ending sentences with a preposition.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some help:

http://www.criticalthinking.org/TGS_...-MediaBias.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks AlexM Looks like a good book.

Having worked for a major news agency I'm still surprised how often people think that they are trying to be objective journalists.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some help:

http://www.criticalthinking.org/TGS_...-MediaBias.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks AlexM Looks like a good book.

Having worked for a major news agency I'm still surprised how often people think that they are trying to be objective journalists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I'm sure many are trying. They just don't know how to any more than anyone else. Even the person best at being unbiased is still going to display bias.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The report says that in the next 30 to 40 years there will be wars over water, increased hunger instability from worsening disease"

Huh? Why would there be a water shortage. Not only have I never heard of any kind of consensus belief of a water shortage, but considering the advances in desalinization technology, it's patently absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

AlexM - I suspect you don't know very much about desalinization.

Why do so people choose to stick their heads in the sand over this issue. Nothing to see here, everything is okay. It's because they want their little world, which they attempt to model after an NBC sitcom to remain unaltered.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
good thread hijack Nielsio.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he actually has a point this time.

Who is going to wage thh "war of water"? States.

Who exists solely for the purpose of addressing global problems created by local actions in a way that local economics can/does not? States.

Who is actually doing nothing about global warming accept talking about what we should do? States.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The report says that in the next 30 to 40 years there will be wars over water, increased hunger instability from worsening disease"

Huh? Why would there be a water shortage. Not only have I never heard of any kind of consensus belief of a water shortage, but considering the advances in desalinization technology, it's patently absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

AlexM - I suspect you don't know very much about desalinization.

Why do so people choose to stick their heads in the sand over this issue. Nothing to see here, everything is okay. It's because they want their little world, which they attempt to model after an NBC sitcom to remain unaltered.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, asking for evidence instead of propaganda is sticking one's head in the sand. All I want it people to provide me with facts. Is global warming really going to affect the world's water supply and are advances in desalinization not likely to be effective? Fine, I'm ready to believe it, but you have to provide evidence. Did I ever say "nothing to see here, everything is ok?" No! I don't know if everything is ok or not because every time I ask for facts on the subject, the people on both sides of the issue instead shower me with propaganda. Then, when I point this out, they get all flustered and start insulting me instead... like your post.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

Perhaps it's time for us Michiganders to start shoring up our borders to keep the riff raff out.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's the fact that theories ... are presented as facts that makes it a propaganda piece, among others things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you even know what a theory is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Better than you do, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.

link

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

The premise of a war over water is hardly original, putting it in global warming clothing is. There have been predictions about wars over water for a long time. In fact, if you looked at it in a certain way, there already is a war over water going on, as many aspects of the Arab-Israeli conflict are not religious in nature, but rather over water.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's the fact that theories ... are presented as facts that makes it a propaganda piece, among others things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you even know what a theory is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Better than you do, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.

link

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. You might want to try reading that until you understand it and then read what I said again.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's propaganda pieces like this that make me skeptical of global warming in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

BS.

[ QUOTE ]
If not for this kind of crap, I'd be right on the bandwagon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also BS.


q/q

Re: Why Should I Care About Their Opinions?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, nice way to change the subject. Kudos.

[/ QUOTE ]

How am i changing the subject? The OP was about that report. You said you were open and willing to consider global warming theories if they weren't so propaganda-laden. I asked what your specific objections were. You gave me objections to CNN's reporting, not the theories laid out in the actual report. I don't particularly care about what you think of the MSM, I'm simply trying to understand what you mean when you say you are open to thinking about global warming except the propaganda-tactics turn you off to thinking about it.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Global warming poses a "serious threat to America's national security" and the U.S. likely will be dragged into fights over water and other shortages, top retired military leaders warn in a new report.


[/ QUOTE ]


If you stop and reflect this general concept is nothing new, surprising, or even that thought provoking. Humanity has been fighting over resources, arable land, trade and sea routes, strategic access points, and a host of perceived or real precious commodities for millennium. The general concept is age old. I recall reading about the first ever recorded war in Will Durant's Story of Civilization - it was over rocks, diorite if I recall correctly, that a specific brigand King wished to use to make statues of himself with and that diorite just happened to be in someone else's sphere of ownership. Thus a war commenced to acquire that which the King needed to sanctify and preserved for posterity his glory, greed, pride, and ego, all acquired by spilling other peoples blood.

Anyway, I care little about any of this. I’m more concerned about the price of my GE stock and the money to be made from the future apocalypse. Go global warming, and if humanity finally exterminates itself and I can make a profit before the curtain falls that is just Icing on the Cake for me.

And one more thing, everyone better start arming up for the big rumble. You don't want to be left out of all the fun.

Le Misanthrope

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried googling. Found a bunch of stuff about this rock and statues but couldn't find any specific wars about this rock. Do you have any more info? This is very interesting.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over w
 

[ QUOTE ]
How would low carbon/alternative/sustainable energy start a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Skyrocketing food prices as food and arable land are diverted to biofuels, for starters. This is already happening; the poor in Mexico are being pinched in the tortilla budget as corn is diverted to ethanol production. I believe there has already been some rioting, but I'm not positive.

Re: 5 Generals 6 Admirals on Climate Change: There will be wars over water
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what scams the nay sayers will be accusing these retired military officers of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Military officers find excuse to pimp for increasing military budgets in preparation for imminent danger from <insert threat here>. Shocking.

What do you want to bet these retired officers are paid consultants for/lobbyists for/employees of/heavily invested in the military industrial complex?