250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

KRANTZ taking the time to post a 200/400 hu hand against PA has inspired me to post a HU hand I played a few days ago in an effort to keep the interesting hands here coming (not that my opponent or stakes compare to his, but I thought this was a legitimately difficult spot, and also because Im sick fo recallme threads).

Weve been playing for about an hour. He sat down with 7k initially and ran it up to 50 (he won a flip, hit a semibluff allin, and snapped off some bluffs). He seems to play pretty well, although he doesnt VB thinly enough IMO. I have yet to catch him making a large, multistreet bluff, although hes made a lot of CBs, 2 barrels, and even c/r river bluffs. All-in-all though, Id say hes on the tight side post flop for a high stakes HU player.

I think everything is pretty standard until the river. Im totally thrown off here by his overbet push. I think that hes a good enough player to be conscious of his image and to know that pushing with 22 and maybe even 99 is probably pretty bad (ie it will be hard for him to be called by worse, and I think he misses a lot of value). But I also have a hard time putting him on any sort of hand range as I would expect him to raise most of his nut/near-nut hands on the turn.

Seat 3: Hero($34,096.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Villain($24,003.50 in chips)
Hero Dealt (QD,9C)

ANTES/BLINDS
Villain posts blind ($50), _NormanChad posts blind ($100).

PRE-FLOP
Villain bets $200, Hero calls $150.

FLOP [board cards: 3S,QS,AC ]
Hero checks, Villain bets $450, Hero calls $450.

TURN [board cards: 3S,QS,AC,9D ]
Hero bets $1,100, Villain calls $1,100.

RIVER [board cards: 3S,QS,AC,9D,QC ]
_Hero bets $3,350, Villain bets $22,203.50 and is all-in, Hero???

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

I can't put him on a hand. I'd call. Even tighter players have it in them to make a spewy bluff here once in awhile. I find that easier to believe than that he flatted AQ or AA on the turn.

edit: it also matters that your hand doesn't look nearly as strong as it is, this makes it less likely that he's going for giant value with aq imo.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

I would be pretty sick in this spot, but I dont see folding. He could have AK, and figured you missed your flush, or trash and figure you missed your flush, but a shove seems pretty out of line here. I dont play these limits, but I dont see laying this down given the action. AA/AQ always raises that blank turn right? I would love to see the results of this hand, but I dont think it really matters because I cant see any hand other than a bluff making sense here given the turn call.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

Id call!@

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Terkman

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

As I read it, hero is norman [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

that explains things

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

This def isnt AK as there's no need to turn it into a bluff- It's a showdown hand after all. This is obv either a straight bluff or a straight VB with the top 2 hands- this is because poster seems to think the opponent doesnt VB thin (and here something like bottom full is def thin). So the real question is does he have the stones to bluff-shove here?

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

i dont think hes bluffing just a matter of whether he will do this with 99 or 33 or like KQ? maybe meh? he seems kinda donkish with the minraise pf... does he do that with AA AQ?

zeebo theorem... cant fold a fh ha

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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i dont think hes bluffing just a matter of whether he will do this with 99 or 33 or like KQ? maybe meh? he seems kinda donkish with the minraise pf... does he do that with AA AQ?

zeebo theorem... cant fold a fh ha

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Hed been making it 2.5 bb's everytime he raised preflop. On a sidenote, I think that making it 2.5bbs from the button hu is actually more optimal than 3, even though I dont do it. But thats neither here nor there.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

oh i thought he minraised it, kinda like widening his range you know?

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

Well, if he has a real hand it almost definitely has to be AQ or Q3. But how are we supposed to know how often it's a real hand? Board on the turn was pretty draw heavy, this could pretty easily be a missed draw. I'd call, of course, but you know that we'll all call here...

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

yeah, cant ever really see folding here without a great read.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

Looks like AA/AQ to me. Once you lead the turn he sees the potential for a big hand and knows it's unlikely you have spades - would you c/c flop and lead river w/ a spade draw?

The queen on the river could easily have filled you up and he's going for max value. Your turn/river lines are way too strong to call here imo.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

I can't fold here.
I think he has 9-9 a large amount of time and that he tried to play the turn tricky

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

suck it up and call.

you gonna post results?

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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yeah, cant ever really see folding here without a great read.

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qft

If this is posted here, he almost had to be shown AQ or AA. If that's the case, that's just some crappy luck to run out those cards.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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I can't fold here.
I think he has 9-9 a large amount of time and that he tried to play the turn tricky

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I'm really surprised that the concensus is easy call on this one. Given the description of the villain this is almost never a bluff...and if he believes he has the best hand often enough to push for value then this is a fold.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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I can't put him on a hand. I'd call. Even tighter players have it in them to make a spewy bluff here once in awhile. I find that easier to believe than that he flatted AQ or AA on the turn.

edit: it also matters that your hand doesn't look nearly as strong as it is, this makes it less likely that he's going for giant value with aq imo.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah I agree, especilly with the last part.

Might be different if you stop and go the turn often though, what kind of hands do you do that with? Only ones that improved and draws/bluffs?

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

Hes gonna have AQ alot. Turn AQ can be scared of set, "not getting busted deep with two pair..." River he nuts up and shoves.

I'd need a read to call.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

snap call.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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snap call.

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Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

why does everyone think this is a snap call?

Do you really think he can have that many worse hands here? He is just about NEVER bluffing...

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

wait, i cant't believe this, because youve been playing with this guy an HOUR and havent caught him bluffing means he is incapable of bluffing? Also why cant he have Ax with the flush draw that missed? This is such an easy call, regardless of the results.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

I understand that you arent ahead of a ton of hands he is value betting, and he isnt bluffing a ton, but look at it from villains perspective.

You flatted preflop, then just called on a flop with a spade draw and ace or whatever. He doesnt figure you can have AQ or AA since you flatted preflop (i dont know you so maybe you can smooth call AQ or AA preflop, but most villains in at higher stakes will take that out of your range) so he figures the best hand you can have is 33 or maybe some weird Q9 or Qx hand. I would say Q9 is the best possible hand you can show up with given earlier action in his eyes. If you can't have the top two or three hands in your range here and he is aware of his image, a bluff here becomes much more likely.

no one can say if he is on that level, but if my opponent was close to this rationale i think i call. This would assume he is capable of turning some made hands into bluffs as well as bluffing missed draws (they all missed i could see him def having like J10s or something). One more thing to consider is that he was up to 50k, and as now down to 25k or whatever. Whenever players that you don't recognize as regulars experience those swings, they are more likely to over value hands or shove in bluffs or semi bluffs to try to desperately regain control of the match. I'd call.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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why does everyone think this is a snap call?

Do you really think he can have that many worse hands here? He is just about NEVER bluffing...

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i think thats a pretty good bluff card.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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I understand that you arent ahead of a ton of hands he is value betting, and he isnt bluffing a ton, but look at it from villains perspective.

You flatted preflop, then just called on a flop with a spade draw and ace or whatever. He doesnt figure you can have AQ or AA since you flatted preflop (i dont know you so maybe you can smooth call AQ or AA preflop, but most villains in at higher stakes will take that out of your range) so he figures the best hand you can have is 33 or maybe some weird Q9 or Qx hand. I would say Q9 is the best possible hand you can show up with given earlier action in his eyes. If you can't have the top two or three hands in your range here and he is aware of his image, a bluff here becomes much more likely.

no one can say if he is on that level, but if my opponent was close to this rationale i think i call. This would assume he is capable of turning some made hands into bluffs as well as bluffing missed draws (they all missed i could see him def having like J10s or something). One more thing to consider is that he was up to 50k, and as now down to 25k or whatever. Whenever players that you don't recognize as regulars experience those swings, they are more likely to over value hands or shove in bluffs or semi bluffs to try to desperately regain control of the match. I'd call.

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If he believes you are on a busted draw then he can call with almost his entire range. The only hand he could be trying to move you off of is Axss and I don't see him making this play to accomplish that goal.

His range of hands on the river, coupled with Hero's range of hands make this a bluff very rarely. He thinks his hand is best here almost all of the time in order to make this bet. I think Hero's best hope if he calls is that villain was value-betting a worse hand.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

Mike, aces full.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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suck it up and call.

you gonna post results?

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GO AWAY. FSU CAN YOU START BANNING THESE FOOLS? JUST BAN THEM OVER AND OVER UNTIL THEY GET THE PICTURE.

evanski, i don't know that i call. do you remember any of the river c/r bluffs that he's shown? you can learn a lot about someone's thought process from how tricky and thinking his bluffs are. and you can also get a feel for how spastic he is and if he might be capable of just wigging out and pulling a nonsensical bluff here or there.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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wait, i cant't believe this, because youve been playing with this guy an HOUR and havent caught him bluffing means he is incapable of bluffing? Also why cant he have Ax with the flush draw that missed? This is such an easy call, regardless of the results.

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WOW, I CANT BELIEVE THIS, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED 50/100 IN YOUR LIFE? OH WAIT, MAYBE ONE TIME BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS YOU RAN UP YOUR $50 DEPOSIT BONUS AND TOOK A SHOT WITH THE 2K YOU WON FROM THAT BIG SIT AND GO SCORE. THOSE WERE THE DAYS. THAT ZWEIG WAS A TRICKY ONE.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/medi...9/18791957.jpg

that's for you petey

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

For some reason I love you krantz.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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suck it up and call.

you gonna post results?

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GO AWAY. FSU CAN YOU START BANNING THESE FOOLS? JUST BAN THEM OVER AND OVER UNTIL THEY GET THE PICTURE.

evanski, i don't know that i call. do you remember any of the river c/r bluffs that he's shown? you can learn a lot about someone's thought process from how tricky and thinking his bluffs are. and you can also get a feel for how spastic he is and if he might be capable of just wigging out and pulling a nonsensical bluff here or there.

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yeah you go ahead and muck it here. and tell me how much better you are then me. cause your right on both accounts. and yeah totally ban me for having an opinon on a OPEN FORUM MESSAGE BOARD.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

HU Grudge Match?

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

yikes i am shocked at at all the "calls"

i fold this....i figure out that im going to fold it very quickly and then i just timebank for the hell of it purely because i dont want to snap fold a boat.

did you guys even read the description of the opponent or just look at the hand and post "i has a boat hu, call"?

you think the villain described is bluffign here? or shoving KQ? jeez. 33 at worst.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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why does everyone think this is a snap call?

Do you really think he can have that many worse hands here? He is just about NEVER bluffing...

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i think thats a pretty good bluff card.

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No it really isn't, and the raise size is [censored] huge.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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why does everyone think this is a snap call?

Do you really think he can have that many worse hands here? He is just about NEVER bluffing...

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i think thats a pretty good bluff card.

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No it really isn't, and the raise size is [censored] huge.

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yeah, tbh honest i missed stack sizes, its a v big shove

i kinda agree that its a fold.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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Looks like AA/AQ to me. Once you lead the turn he sees the potential for a big hand and knows it's unlikely you have spades - would you c/c flop and lead river w/ a spade draw?

The queen on the river could easily have filled you up and he's going for max value. Your turn/river lines are way too strong to call here imo.

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Busted spades are definitely in my range here, as are air/near air hands.

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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why does everyone think this is a snap call?

Do you really think he can have that many worse hands here? He is just about NEVER bluffing...

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i think thats a pretty good bluff card.

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No it really isn't, and the raise size is [censored] huge.

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yeah, tbh honest i missed stack sizes, its a v big shove

i kinda agree that its a fold.

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Phew...for a minute there I thought I was going crazy...

Re: 250 BB 50/100 HU Tricky River Spot
 

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suck it up and call.

you gonna post results?

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GO AWAY. FSU CAN YOU START BANNING THESE FOOLS? JUST BAN THEM OVER AND OVER UNTIL THEY GET THE PICTURE.

evanski, i don't know that i call. do you remember any of the river c/r bluffs that he's shown? you can learn a lot about someone's thought process from how tricky and thinking his bluffs are. and you can also get a feel for how spastic he is and if he might be capable of just wigging out and pulling a nonsensical bluff here or there.

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I like the new KRANTZ. Hes been c/r the river a fair amount but I only called a few times, and only caught him bluffing twice. Both times it was with a busted draw (action on hand 1 was r c, c b c, c c, c b r c) hand 2 was a backdoored draw (r c, c c, c b c, c b r c). Both were regular flush draws with no additional outs. Nothing super tricky or complicated. The raise size was pretty standard too, I think roughly 3x my bet, maybe 3.5.