Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

$30/60 stud/8 was a hot game at Canterbury Park in 2002 and predictably died out. It resurfaced during the 2004 Fall Classic and was a weekly game for a while after that, petering out in early 2005. Since then, it's only gone during the Fall Classic, and sporadically at that. Yesterday was the first day of this year's Fall Classic, and when I showed up at about 4:30, the game had been going for an hour or so. A lot of people come from out of town for the Fall Classic, but absolutely everybody who played in yesterday's stud/8 game was local. Why it never runs during the rest of the year is a bit of a mystery.

Anyway, the game's a little tighter than I like it, but there are a couple of loose, bad players who keep me interested. The game has a $5 ante. Low card on my right brings it in for $10, I make it $30 with split Queens, and I get called by the two live ones. One is showing a baby and the other has a Nine. On fourth, I catch a Queen and bet with both opponents calling. On fifth, the Nine makes open Kings and bets:

Player 1: 9KK
Andy B: (Q8)QQ7
Player 2: 234

I may not have the right order for Player 2. Sorry I don't remember suits for either, but I think both boards were rainbow. Player 1 is in no way prevented from having trip Kings, but he could have a lot of other things as well. Player 2's range is really broad. Player 1 bets, I call, Player 2 raises, and we both call.

On sixth KK catches a Six and bets. I look at 2346 behind me and fold. Comments?

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

What was your card on 6th? You have up to 9 outs to a full house and 1 for quads for half the pot. The way I figure it, $90 or $100 goes in on 3rd, then $90 more on 4th, then $360 on 5th. SO when KK bets on 6th there is $600 in the pot of which you can lay claim to $300 if you win, so the pot is laying you 5:1 and you're a little worse than 2.5:1 to improve (9 outs, 30 cards unknown). You don't think queens full will win half the pot 1/2 the time?

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

I guess the problem is that you'll have to expect the low hand to raise there, he'd be an idiot not to unless he does not in fact have a low, and the KK might re-raising, cutting your odds to crap. That would be a tough situation, but maybe consider folding if it's 2 back to you? At that point you'd still be getting 3.25:1 to call which is fine if Qs full will be good most of the time and/or you think QQQ might be good for the high right now.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

I think I should have called the $60 and folded if it was raised and re-raised.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

Well, you know the stakes I play, and stud/8 isn't my game, but I do have some experience with split pot games, so I know that anyone half decent, or anyone who gives a lot of action, is going to raise 6th showing 2346. Either he's got a made low, or a mediocre high hand like 2 pair and a draw to a low (and yeah, I thought about it, I'm pretty sure he can have 2 pair and a low draw here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). So calling there definitely means calling one more bet, and I think *that's* ok, but yeah, calling 2 more when the low board can (and probably will) cap behind you... I guess I'd have to fold there.

I don't think it's an awful to fold for 1bb there though. I just don't think I could make it.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

How familiar is the guy with Kings with your game? Your hand should be very obvious I would think, with Aces up at worst. Surely his bet on 6th says he can beat a straight right? I can't see you not getting jammed in on 6th. Myself, I like laying it down at the first bet as opposed to calling and watching come back $120 to you.

I wonder if there's merit to raising 5th and make KK define his hand there?

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

Could KK have only 2 pair here? I think thats more likely than a set of kings. You are showing Queens up so he could very well be trying to protect his two pair. I think you gotta call the pot has gotten far to large to quit here.
The one thing thats really holding be back is the low draw, i'm really affraid of him having the straight in this spot, if i was going to fold this hand, that would be my reason for doing it. I would be worried about getting scooped. The kings aren't really that scary to me.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, the game's a little tighter than I like it, but there are a couple of loose, bad players who keep me interested. The game has a $5 ante. Low card on my right brings it in for $10, I make it $30 with split Queens, and I get called by the two live ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. From your description of the game, I'm not sure if I want to play split queens. If I get called by good players, I'm dead money; if I get called by the live ones, I'll never be sure where I'm at.


[ QUOTE ]
One is showing a baby and the other has a Nine. On fourth, I catch a Queen and bet with both opponents calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I've made queens a bunch; I am against two live ones; I am now officially married to this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
On sixth KK catches a Six and bets. I look at 2346 behind me and fold. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I don't like it at all, but I still can't fold. Playing split queens was cute. Folding here was cute. Don't play cute. You may well have been beat, but against two live ones I have to ride it down.

jmo

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

something like 9.5 BB in the pot so far, right?

it's gonna take about 3 more to possibly win half of an 18 BB-ish pot, unless you dodge the other guy's straight/outs but get scooped by the KK clownfish anyway

good fold

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

[ QUOTE ]
So calling there definitely means calling one more bet, and I think *that's* ok, but yeah, calling 2 more when the low board can (and probably will) cap behind you... I guess I'd have to fold there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi-lo games are games of ad hoc collusion. The high hand and the low hand try to identify each other and whipsaw the field. If I have the high hand, and another high hand is doing the whipsawing, that's just as good as doing it myself. It is only important that the pot be built, not who's doing it. So I don't think that being caught in the middle here is necessarily a bad thing.

The question is, of course, is Andy beat. I'd be more worried about the 6-high straight than the KK. But of course, I still have outs against a straight. Another question in my mind is whether KK knows that Andy has QQQ--is there another hand he can put him on, or is he even thinking about what Andy might have.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

I folded split Queens a couple of times and played them a couple of other times. In this particular hand, there were only a couple of low cards out, and a lot of 9-J. I think raising was correct.

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I've made queens a bunch; I am against two live ones; I am now officially married to this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ordinarily, this is about how I'd see it. At this particular time, I didn't. Can't really explain it.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

[ QUOTE ]
...is he even thinking about what Andy might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

btw, this thread has 17 replies, and 0 people have pointed out that if you make a boat on the river and lose the hand, 3 bets will go in

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

Against good players, it's an agonizing fold. Against patzers, I think calling one bet with the intention of calling no more than one more is reasonable.

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I should have called the $60 and folded if it was raised and re-raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding!

Re: Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8
 

I think its a good fold although at higher limits sometimes in this specific situation the other high hand may attempt to bluff you out of the pot with the logic of if I raise him, he has to assume I have trips beat and split with the non high low hand. In this case however, the low hand is a connected board and not a rough low. With that reasoning, it would be hard to imagine that the other high hand is betting without having you beat and having a weak enough hand to bet into the potentially high and low other player.

Results for the results-oriented
 

I probably don't post this if I was shown a full house and a 64. 444 scooped my pot. Other guy had KK66. I said nothing, and I don't think I let on that I had laid down QQQ to these monkeys.

On fifth, I thought that it was highly likely that I had the best hand, and that 432 could be raising on the come or just because he likes splashing around. When the Kings came out betting on sixth, I revised my read. The bettor is a bad player, but he's not completely clueless. He's looking at a four-card straight and a guy who probably has three Queens, and he comes out betting. There's a decent chance he's full--Sixes full, Kings full, Nines full, who knows? Meanwhile, the other guy can certainly have a straight or make one on the river (I believe that Fives were completely live). It's costing me a minimum of $180 to see this through, and I'm probably playing for half of the pot. I'm wasn't terribly surprised by the results, and while something like this might set me off, it didn't in this case for some reason. Maybe I'm maturing.

Yeah, right.

Did no one comment on fifth because not raising into 432 is super-standard?

Re: Results for the results-oriented
 

I didn't comment on 5th because I don't know much about stud/8. Actually, analysis on 6th can be done almost entirely without knowledge of the game in question except for answering "how often will my improved hand win"

If you fear one opponent has a straight, and the other has kings up, I think it's an easy call because you're getting the right odds to chase a full house/quads, even calling 2 bets on 6th. If you think one opponent has KKK then it's a lot closer because not only are you beat now, then 1/4 of the time that you improve to a FH he improves to a better one.

If you had time probably you'd want to create a little tree of possibilities and estimate the equity of each branch, etc, but who can do that in real time?

Regarding the tilt issue, certainly something like this might make me tilt a bit. But so would losing a bajillion dollars if I called it down and lost to exactly what I feared when I was calling. Given how many bets I think would have gone into this if you called on 6th, I think it's actually pretty close as to whether calling and being wrong is worse than folding and being wrong.

I might actually mutter "I guess queens up isn't going to win this hand" or something as I folded. It's a thing Mike Caro mentioned in one of his books, like folding on the river with 2 pair and claiming that you missed your flush draw AGAIN