Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

Hi Everyone:

I'm going to be accused of just trying to sell books, but that's not the case. Even though we have now sold a fair number of Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games by Nick "Stoxtrader" Grudzien and Geoff "Zobags" Herzog, almost 15,000 at this point in time, I think that many of you are missing out. It contains some of the most dynamic material we have ever published, and I have been working with it to improve my own limit play.

It's not an easy book, and to really benefit from it will require some study. But for those who make this effort, it will be worth it.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

I have not gotten the book because I am not sure I will get anything out of it as I am a no limit and pot limit player. Also, the level I play at is way below what the authors write about.

Is there any benefit, to a player like myself, picking up the book?

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

I consider WITHG to be the second best limit hold'em book ever written (behind SSH) and the gap between it and the third best is quite large.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

I'm primarily a no-limit player. But recently I've played a bit of fixed limit hold 'em. I bought the book, and what Mason says is true. It is outstanding and it definitely helped me find some leaks in my game. I highly recommend it.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

i expect that it's a fantastic book. not too often that a world-class player lays things out like that.

but like the first respondant, i too have given up limit for NL forever (would go to omaha etc. if i ever got tired of NLHE).

will i be able to get alot out of it when i only play NL? i'm thinking yes. i think that it will teach alot about reading hands and about analyzing your play thru pokertracker....

so i think i will add it to my next order............ would have been so much better if author had done NL book. hopefully, he will

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

Why would anyone want to play in a tough game?

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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Why would anyone want to play in a tough game?

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It's a question of win rate.

Do you want to play 10/20 and make 3 bb/hr, or 40/80 and make 1 bb/hr?

You can make more money at the higher table, but you have to have the BR & skills. Of the two, the BR is the easy part.

Sorry Mason, but I also have given up limit for NL. I am not, however, foolish enough to belive that it is "forever."

Your old conjecture is still true - The fish go broke faster a NL than at limit. Modern capped buy-ins have slowed the money hemorage from a gush to a spurt, but eventually the suckers will bleed to death faster than they can be replaced with newbies.

At that time the pros will all have to take up limit poker again, because that's what the fish will all be playing.

Now what form of limit poker the fish will be playing is anyone's guess, but if it's limit hold'em then we'll all end up buying Stox's book.

Personally I think it will be HORSE or SHOE, in which case we'll have to buy the book anyway.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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Your old conjecture is still true - The fish go broke faster a NL than at limit. Modern capped buy-ins have slowed the money hemorage from a gush to a spurt, but eventually the suckers will bleed to death faster than they can be replaced with newbies.


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Well ... perhaps in an old school casino world, where NL starts at 1/2$ ... but you're forgetting that you these days can play penny NL, nobody needs to go broke anymore unless they have a gambling problem.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

I think what hurts it is that it might be a couple rungs too high on the ladder relative to most readers' LHE games (including mine). Plus, you know, it's limit.

At this point I've read enough books that new material is a little harder to come by than when I first started studying, but this book is filled with truly expert-level content. It's really going to take a few reads.

In time, though, I think this book will be better recognized for what it is.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

Mason- I agree. This book is super-cool.

Glad to see you guys corrected the oversight and added it to the 'books' page so that people can actually order it.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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It contains some of the most dynamic material we have ever published, and I have been working with it to improve my own limit play.

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Mason,

Many readers would be interested in hearing the specific ways in which this book has helped improve your limit game.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

The limit games in my area are: 4/8 (very loose game and winnable if you apply SSH) and 10/20 and 20/40.

My questions are:
I would like to know if this book will serve me any good if I continue to play 4/8 or are the concepts just too sophisticated/advanced to apply to the easier games?

What specific concepts does this book cover which isn't covered thoroughly in SSH and HPFAP?

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

[ QUOTE ]
The limit games in my area are: 4/8 (very loose game and winnable if you apply SSH) and 10/20 and 20/40.

My questions are:
I would like to know if this book will serve me any good if I continue to play 4/8 or are the concepts just too sophisticated/advanced to apply to the easier games?

What specific concepts does this book cover which isn't covered thoroughly in SSH and HPFAP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been working through the book, and in my view the concepts don't come into play in loose games. I think there are spots where the book can help in 20-40, but I doubt it would even make sense to someone who is only playing 4-8 (because you will never see opponents react in the ways discussed in the book).

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

as usual, i agree with jfk.

i found the book interesting and thought provoking. however, i found some of the ideas easy to understand but difficult to embrace. i disagreed with parts of the book. it is possible that i missed a lot and that i am incorrect. therefore, mason, can you elaborate on why the book is helping your game and it what ways it is helping?

thanks.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

amulet, if I recall in jfk's review, he wrote that with SSH and HOH, he regrets seeing this book published. JFK is trying to get Mason to sell the book, not justify it's existence.

I think the problem with the book is that it is aimed at a small audience. I know that the book is wonderful, but it is useless in games most people play, as very few players play at the level this book is written for. Also, many players have a plug up their bums about playing limit. For the player pool it is aimed toward, it is selling very well.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

No one can say enough good things about WITHG. It's superb.

Where SSHE is for loose multiway games, WITHG is for tight games where you get headsup. It's the book for going mano y mano.

The blinds section is the reference source. Nobody has come close to it.

As for limit, who cares if most are playing NL? When they start playing mixed games, they'll be DOA. The vast majority of NL players cannot play well after the flop. That's where expert limit players make their money. They've made thousands and thousands of decisions on the turn and river, where even players with lots of experience in NL rarely have to make river decisions.

Those who can play both have the world in their hands. Find a good game, whichever it is, and take home the guitas.

CJ

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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I know that the book is wonderful, but it is useless in games most people play, as very few players play at the level this book is written for.

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I think this book has relevance all the way down to 3/6 limit 6-max online.
Perhaps even down to 1/2 limit.

Can also be applied to many limit full-ring games online down to 3/6 or even 1/2 which seem to be tighter than ever. Not necessarily THAT tough. But you don't have nearly as many people practically trying to give their money away by playing 100% of their hands as you did just a few years ago.
You do have a bunch of players who fall anywhere between 11/2 to 20/12 though and you have tables that get folded around to late-position or the blinds an awful lot.

Lots of these games don't really fall under Ed Miller's SSHE as much imo. It can constantly get folded around to the HJ or CO and you are either going to be attempting to steal the blinds with your 55 or K8s or whatever or you are going to be defending your BB with those hands.
Those heads-up "should I steal or attempt to defend with this hand and how do I go about playing it post-flop?" type of situations are addressed extremely well in Stox's book.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

i play limit at very high stakes, and often shorthanded. as i wrote, the book made me think, however, there was a lot i disagreed with.

i would like to hear why you, mason, and maybe jfk thought it was so wonderful, and what parts all of you thought improved your game.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

I will confess. I have avoided buying this book because I avoid tough lmit games. I know I will eventually buy it because when the NL boom runs its course, I need to be ready.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

Hi amulet:

It's very helpful in games where players are very agressive, much more so than they use to be. This relates to not only starting hands including attacking and defending the blinds, but in play against this kind of player from the flop on.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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i would like to hear why you, mason, and maybe jfk thought it was so wonderful, and what parts all of you thought improved your game.

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At the most fundamental level I appreciated the book for the marriage between empirical data, winning play, solid writing and stark advice. Previously, there wasn't much in the way of very specific writing towards the sort of BSB battles that are now at the heart of modern online hold 'em. WTHIG plugged that gap in the literature.

I think about the very good past titles from 2+2, like HEFAP or Zee's Hi/lo split and marvel at the progress made in terms of very specific, very finely shaded advice which can be given due to the availability of databases with millions of hands played.

Though I'm not at all a quant. in terms of training, it is clear that players with this bent now enjoy an enormous edge versus those more traditionally schooled in poker skills. As such, I find great value in being bludgeoned with the hard facts of what the data says about correct ranges and play.

In terms of the way it has improved (or at least changed) my play, I've opened up both my blind steal and defense ranges appreciably. I run med. and small pairs harder, especially with position. I've added a little more balance into my play in terms of tempering some needless aggression.

Of course, I can't definitely say that these adjustments have been correct, as my tighter than the mean profile means that when I get push back, it may be more indicative of strength than that same play against a more mainstream opponent. As anyone would, I sometimes need to re-adjust some of the principles applied.

Perhaps most importantly, I've also been far more mindful and appreciative of game selection. Since reading WITHG I've actually tended to move down in stakes, move away from shorthanded play, play live more, and play a lot less online limit hold 'em. Part of this is because the mid-high, full ring limit games at the site I prefer (World Poker Exchange) rarely run, but I'm also seeing a lot of merit in staying away from online limit games where much or all of the table has the same general skill set as I.

I give a lot of credit to the authors for addressing this. Page 4 describes upper mid-stakes limit games as, "These games are tight and aggressive. You will find tables full of players that play just like you. You should avoid them." The next page gives the frank assessement that most high limit games, "...are not worth playing."

Further they show a data pool from a mid-limt full ring grinder who after 430K worth of hands is up a little less than 12K while playing at levels as high as $1/2. That's a very bleak picture of the possibilities in today's limit hold 'em. Assuming he's holding the 1000BB bankroll (or $200K) described as being needed to ply $1/$2, this player could've made about as much in interest from a money market account as he did playing 430K hands of limit hold 'em.

WTHIG is the most sophisticated book on the subject but sadly this advanced, nuanced level of play brings the realization that heavily raked online limit hold 'em is an increasingly bad gamble, even for winning players.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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I give a lot of credit to the authors for addressing this. Page 4 describes upper mid-stakes limit games as, "These games are tight and aggressive. You will find tables full of players that play just like you. You should avoid them." The next page gives the frank assessement that most high limit games, "...are not worth playing."

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So one of the main things that you learned from the book entitled "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" is to avoid them?

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So one of the main things that you learned from the book entitled "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" is to avoid them?

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LOL, i thought the same thing... i understand the comment at the end of the review, where he says that he got the feeling heavily raked online isn't worth it with TAG games. but i don't understand the author's comment that he picked up on.

JFK, appreciated the review very much. can you clarify the stox comment? did he write a book about games he thinks "we should avoid"??... thanks in advance!!!

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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So one of the main things that you learned from the book entitled "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" is to avoid them?

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Yes, it reinforced the concept that I always have to be on the look out for a good gamble. That there's no sense in playing without an easily defined, readily identifiable edge.

Prior to Stox/Zobags, I was regularly playing 20/40 to 50/100 online. Now (if playing limit hold 'em) I commonly play as low as 3/6 and my earn isn't very different while my variance is in a very narrow band. Also, I've branched out into LO8, HORSE and NLHE MTTs.

When moving up the ladder of limit hold 'em stakes, I was very mindful of game conditions. After a while I took that for granted and didn't win as much. After a while it became non-sensical to sit in games where table VPIPs were in the teens when I could play other forms of poker or go to a live game where the clock was rolled back to 2004 and seven players were seeing a flop.

I still mix in the occasional online mid-limit hold 'em game, but I'm far more selective.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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Why would anyone want to play in a tough game?

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wrong question.

in my opinion the better question is this:

Why would anyone want to learn to BEAT tough holdem games?

answer: Because it will almost certainly improve your play, and thus, your earn, in ALL holdem games.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone want to play in a tough game?

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wrong question.

in my opinion the better question is this:

Why would anyone want to learn to BEAT tough holdem games?

answer: Because it will almost certainly improve your play, and thus, your earn, in ALL holdem games.

[/ QUOTE ]

...far better reply than mine.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

There are plenty of games with one fish which are otherwise tough, if you can't handle the game when the fish folds it will often wipe out any edge you have because of the fish.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

there a re lots and lots of good things to say about this book. What really struck a cord with me, was that the post-flop section was organised according to line for flop and turn; i.e. the bet/bet line etc. This is in contrast to the books that divide according to what you flop, and that treat flop, turn and river as three separate strategic decisions. In terms of amount of information, it's unrivalled methinks.

Cheers,

Smurf

PS: Mason, the book is fantastic. It's strictly that NLHE is whipping LHE's butt so severely. Nobody seems to like full ring anymore and shorthanded is a rake-orgy.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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i play limit at very high stakes, and often shorthanded. as i wrote, the book made me think, however, there was a lot i disagreed with.

i would like to hear why you, mason, and maybe jfk thought it was so wonderful, and what parts all of you thought improved your game.

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Amulet, I'd be more interested in hearing what you disagree with in the book, than why Mason likes it ... pls share [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

What Gelford said! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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There are plenty of games with one fish which are otherwise tough, if you can't handle the game when the fish folds it will often wipe out any edge you have because of the fish.

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Yes this is it. Or even more than one fish, when you find yourself in a hand against a tough player it doesn't matter how good the "game" is.

Maybe a more accurate title would be "Playing Well in Steal Situations Against Tough Players, Which Usually Implies That The Flop Is Heads Up". I'd like to see a cover design contest for that one.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

If amulet has a higher wr than stox, then he would naturally disagree with some of the concepts in the book.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of games with one fish which are otherwise tough, if you can't handle the game when the fish folds it will often wipe out any edge you have because of the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is it. Or even more than one fish, when you find yourself in a hand against a tough player it doesn't matter how good the "game" is.

Maybe a more accurate title would be "Playing Well in Steal Situations Against Tough Players, Which Usually Implies That The Flop Is Heads Up". I'd like to see a cover design contest for that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


We could call it PWISSATPWUITTFIHU for short.

Change the title to "If The Flop Is Short-Handed" and you get the acronym IFISH

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of games with one fish which are otherwise tough, if you can't handle the game when the fish folds it will often wipe out any edge you have because of the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is it. Or even more than one fish, when you find yourself in a hand against a tough player it doesn't matter how good the "game" is.

Maybe a more accurate title would be "Playing Well in Steal Situations Against Tough Players, Which Usually Implies That The Flop Is Heads Up". I'd like to see a cover design contest for that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


We could call it PWISSATPWUITTFIHU for short.

Change the title to "If The Flop Is Short-Handed" and you get the acronym IFISH

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

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Change the title to "If The Flop Is Short-Handed" and you get the acronym iFISH

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awesome.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

amulet--

I'd absolutely love to hear what you agreed and disagreed with in WTHG, which I think is the ne plus ultra of limit hold'em literature and in the top tier of poker literature. Which is of course not to say that it's perfect.

Like you, I'd like to hear what Mason has to say about it, but it seems probable that he's not going to be very specific, and anyway that particular interest of mine is more observational than anything else.

All my best,

--Nate

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Further they show a data pool from a mid-limt full ring grinder who after 430K worth of hands is up a little less than 12K while playing at levels as high as $1/2. That's a very bleak picture of the possibilities in today's limit hold 'em. Assuming he's holding the 1000BB bankroll (or $200K) described as being needed to ply $1/$2, this player could've made about as much in interest from a money market account as he did playing 430K hands of limit hold 'em.


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+Rakeback +Bonuses that are easier to clear in Limit and it's still $$$ in your pocket.

$1/$2 is a stake to avoid imho: Bad "rake + nb of good players" to "rakeback+bonus" ratio. (could depends on the site obviously)

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I consider WITHG to be the second best limit hold'em book ever written (behind SSH) and the gap between it and the third best is quite large.

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Not for the same game.

But,

I think WITHG is just way ahead.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

I think the book is pretty bad fwiw.

Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games
 

wow, ok.