12 bb with JJ
 

Should i just push this preflop? Im not to familiar with M but I would think an M of 12 is too much to push. I decided I was pushing any flop that didnt contain to overs. Thoughts?

PokerStars Game #7596696234: Tournament #38704123, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2006/12/25 - 04:24:28 (ET)
Table '38704123 78' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: DRACULAENUSA (5715 in chips)
Seat 2: twolve1245 (1805 in chips)
Seat 3: AK Taz69 (5985 in chips)
Seat 4: ballsinhand1 (1755 in chips)
Seat 5: thepokerchic (3810 in chips)
Seat 6: JesseB_11 (2454 in chips)
Seat 7: TesticleTed (2360 in chips)
Seat 8: Jewellsa (5335 in chips)
Seat 9: BIGMIKE5418 (12005 in chips)
ballsinhand1: posts small blind 100
thepokerchic: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JesseB_11 [Jh Js]
JesseB_11: raises 400 to 600
TesticleTed: folds
Jewellsa: folds
BIGMIKE5418: calls 600
DRACULAENUSA: folds
twolve1245: folds
AK Taz69: folds
ballsinhand1: folds
thepokerchic: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ah 5h Tc]
JesseB_11: bets 1854 and is all-in

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

I just shove PF. Once I see the ace high flop c/c is way more +EV than open shoving.

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just shove PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

You have an M of 8, not 12. With an M of 8 I definitely push pre-flop. Read Harrington on Hold'em Vol II - definitely worth getting familiar with M and its implications.

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

Shove it pf

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

I don't really like shoving pf there, M considerations aside. A 12X the BB raise is only getting called by a smaller range of hands. Even though it's online and players are looser that's still a big raise and a big part of other people's stacks.

And I hate letting go of 1/4 of your stack to 1 bet pre-flop but 1800 is still okay to work with in a pstars $10. Double up from there and you are fine.

As to post-flop, two choices:
1. c-bet and hope the villain doesn't have the A.
2. Or if you've decided he doesn't then c-r all-in.

Open-shoving only gets called by a hand that beats you I think.

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

Open shoving does usually get called by a hand that beats you. HOH has a paragraph about playing QQ in this same way. you usually will only get called with AA, KK, AK. but the main difference was the level of the blinds. in HOHs scenario the blinds were like 5/10, correct me if im wrong, but its close.

He explains that this play will win the blinds 90% of the time. but 8% of the time you will get called by AA, KK, AK and lose your stack. So clearly in the long run, its a losing play, however in this situation, the blinds are much higher. so those same %s work out to open shove being a winning play.

OPEN SHOVE!

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

I would check/call the flop. Maybe push the turn if villain checks behind.

Preflop raise is fine. You pretty much have to have TT+, AQ+ to do this. Push is OK, but it narrows your range even further. I don't agree with people saying pushing M of 8 UTG is obviously best. I would never push here.

I might limp or raise 2.5xBB so as to give less information about my hand, but you don't have to play that way with JJ.

In summary, I don't see how you can misplay this preflop.

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

ya your right i forgot to inclue sb

Re: 12 bb with JJ
 

Is there anywaY I can expect them to lay down a weak ace with my push on the flop?