Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

2/10 spread live game. Game is skewing reasonably loose-weak, but a few solid tights at the table (9-handed).

Reads
Villan 1: In MP, a young kid who is pretty loose-passive. Is very stubborn and hasn't really folded a hand in which he's started calling down.

Villan 2: In CO, a middle-aged guy who has been playing pretty TAG. Has shown down some solid hands and has raked in a few decent pots.

Hero is UTG+1 with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]-9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero limps, Villan 1 limps, one other limp, Villan 2 raises to $6. Folds to Hero who calls, Villan 1 calls, other limper folds.

Total pot: $18 ($23 - $4 rake - $1 bad beat jackpot)

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]-9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Hero bets $10 (maxbet). Villan 1 and Villan 2 both call.

Total pot: $48

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero (as he thinks of what a worse turn card could have been) checks, Villan 1 bets $10, Villan 2 raises to $20.

There is no way we can call this, right? Do we lead here? Like I said, I could only think of a few worse turn cards than that one.

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

yep you nailed it

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

C/f the turn is fine. You're absolutely destroyed always and it's arguable that you shouldn't call one bet back let alone two. NH.

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's arguable that you shouldn't call one bet back let alone two. NH.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a follow-up question I was thinking of as well. Let's say it's one maxbet only. The two scenarios I was thinking on the turn were-

1) - Hero checks, Villan 1 checks, Villan 2 maxbets

2) - Hero checks, Villan 1 maxbets, Villan 2 calls

I can't imagine we'd even think of calling scenario #1 for fear of a c/r from Villan 1. Even though he was a loose-passive young kid, I didn't know him well enough to say for certain he wouldn't pull off a c/r.

For scenario #2 where we close the action, could a call be worth it assuming we'll probably get paid off by both on maxbets on the river if we fill up? I'm on the fence on that one, somebody convince me [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img].

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

Well, for our purposes you can assume you're behind about always, so you have four outs max no matter what your opponents have. So, out of 46 unseen cards only 4 get you home. You need to be getting a more than 11-1 see the river. Even with only one bet back (and assuming a c/r isn't imminent) you're only getting a little less than 6-1. You're not even close, and you can't make it up even if you get there.

And, frankly, if it were only one bet back to you, how often are you good here? 1 in 15? 20? Maybe? Mathematically, this is a clear fold no matter what.

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

You are behind, and the best odds you would be getting here, is $20 to $89 when you have three compromised outs ( The nine of spades isnt really going to make me happy) and you still could be behind with the other three.

Not to mention that the betting isn't closed yet this round.

Fold. Next hand.

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

To answer the rhetorical question, yes, I think the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] was the worst card remaining in the deck. However, the 6,7 and Q of spades were all also terrible, as were all 3 remaining Ts, so don't feel all that bad.

As for the hand, you can't even call one bet closing the action here. Folderino.

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

If you get your boat and get beaten by a str8 flush
do you get the jackpot? If so, you might be able to
use that to justify a crying call.

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you get your boat and get beaten by a str8 flush
do you get the jackpot? If so, you might be able to
use that to justify a crying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, place I play at qualifies jackpot as A's full of 8's (or better) getting beat by quads (or better).

FWIW, I did fold on the turn. Villan 1 called the turn raise. River blanked. IIRC, Villan 1 check/called and lost to Villan 2's flush. V1 never said what he had but we just assumed a straight.

Re: Easy turn fold w/ two pair right?
 

Why dont you checkraise the flop? The 2 villain would have c-bet there, wouldnt he? That way you shut out the 1 villain, or force him to define his hand. Check/fold turn in this situation is probably the right thing to do.