Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

So I sent this hand to a friend who is one of the better nlhe players in the world. He says that I need to bet/call 7th considering that he has 2 aces showing. Sorry, but I can't figure out how to convert the hand.


FullTiltPoker Game #4016541650: Table Andy Bloch - $1/$2 Ante $0.20 - Limit Stud Hi - 18:13:53 ET - 2007/10/30
Seat 1: JACKRR2 ($85.65)
Seat 2: pbf13579 ($134.95)
Seat 3: StiveG ($31.25)
Seat 5: Royal27 ($73.30)
Seat 6: Gordon Gejko ($102.45)
Seat 7: JohnnyScotch ($43.80)
Seat 8: exrail ($87.80)
JohnnyScotch antes $0.20
StiveG antes $0.20
JACKRR2 antes $0.20
Gordon Gejko antes $0.20
exrail antes $0.20
pbf13579 antes $0.20
Royal27 antes $0.20
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Royal27 [4s]
Dealt to Gordon Gejko [3s]
Dealt to JohnnyScotch [8s Js] [Tc]
Dealt to exrail [2h]
Dealt to JACKRR2 [2c]
Dealt to pbf13579 [5d]
Dealt to StiveG [2s]
JACKRR2 is low with [2c]
JACKRR2 brings in for $0.25
pbf13579 folds
StiveG folds
Royal27 folds
Gordon Gejko calls $0.25
JohnnyScotch calls $0.25
exrail folds
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to Gordon Gejko [3s] [Ac]
Dealt to JohnnyScotch [8s Js Tc] [Jc]
Dealt to JACKRR2 [2c] [Kc]
Gordon Gejko bets $1
JohnnyScotch calls $1
JACKRR2 folds
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to Gordon Gejko [3s Ac] [Ah]
Dealt to JohnnyScotch [8s Js Tc Jc] [Jh]
Gordon Gejko bets $2
JohnnyScotch raises to $4
Gordon Gejko calls $2
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to Gordon Gejko [3s Ac Ah] [Ad]
Dealt to JohnnyScotch [8s Js Tc Jc Jh] [Jd]
Gordon Gejko bets $2
JohnnyScotch raises to $4
Gordon Gejko calls $2
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to JohnnyScotch [8s Js Tc Jc Jh Jd] [7h]
Gordon Gejko checks
JohnnyScotch bets $2
Gordon Gejko raises to $4
JohnnyScotch???

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

First things first, you should be raising (or folding) 3rd street with your hand. Normally, this hand would be garbage and is usually a routine fold(middling, double gutter straight cards are not good hands to draw to). However, in this situation, you probably should've gone ahead and raised, because, A) almost everyone had already folded to you, and all your cards still remain live, B) there was only 1 limper to you and his doorcard was smaller than yours, which means, that not only would you be drawing to that double-gutter, but you have overcards that might also help you to have the best hand/take the lead if you hit any of them, as well. Plus, by raising 3rd, it gives you more of a chance to take down the pot on the later streets. And C) you don't want to give the bring-in a chance to hit something for free (ie; if he was dealt something like Q72, and you raised 3rd, then he's probably not going to call. But if you just limp and let's say that you hit one of those getter straight cards on 4th but he hits that Queen.. then you'll be far behind in the hand, even with the draw), so if you have the opportunity to get it to heads up play, then you should at least try to achieve that and raise 3rd cause it really is a muuuuch better HU hand. Enough said on that.

I think, if your opponent had quad A's, he's probably going to be looking to play it one of two ways...either he's going to try and be "clever" and check it to you, or, he's just going to bet it. And, because you also had a very strong open board yourself, I would think that he'd be more likely to bet it. I don't see him betting quads on 6th, then getting raised by you to just smooth call and then checkraise the river. It doesn't make sense, because, once he decides to bet 6th, he'd make more on the hand if he just kept pressing the envelope. And, because the Ten was your doorcard, he probably thinks you made J's full. So, when he bets, you have to raise at least once with quads, but when he reraises, it's really only a matter of taking on the last bet or electing to just call. Eh, I would go ahead and cap the betting on the river and if he shows you quads, good for him. If it were a live game(and there wasn't a cap on the betting), then I'd probably stop raising after 2 or 3 times, which adds up to what's allowed on the internet.

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would go ahead and cap the betting on the river and if he shows you quads, good for him. If it were a live game(and there wasn't a cap on the betting), then I'd probably stop raising after 2 or 3 times, which adds up to what's allowed on the internet.

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Yeah, it looks like he thinks he has you out-boated. And if he has quads, too, well, there ya go, a hand to bore everyone with at every dinner you go to for the rest of your life. If we aren't putting it all out there with quads, when do we?

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

There is a handy converter here. If you have problems, please describe them in this thread.

I think the limp on third is fine. Your hand is a dog, but it has some potential, and you're getting excellent pot odds with the high ante and low bring-in. You can always get away from this cheaply. Folding would be fine, too. Since raising has been suggested, I don't like it because you have very little steal equity with a limper already in.

I think fourth through sixth are fairly routine. How much action you want to put in on the river depends on your estimation of opponent. You've raised his open trip Aces, in essence saying that you can beat Aces-full. Now many $1/2 players aren't going to realize that this is what you're saying, and others aren't going to believe you. Against a good player who thinks that I'm a good player, I might only call the check-raise. There are some tight, predictable players against whom I would do the same. Against a clueless player, I'm going at least one more round. If the game is at Canterbury Park, I'll go an extra couple of rounds against almost anyone because I'm free-rolling on a jackpot.

An important difference between raising in this spot and raising in a similar spot in NLHE is that if you're wrong, you only lose a couple of extra bets in this game. In NLHE, you can lose your stack. Losing an extra $4 or so with quads isn't something to beat yourself up over.

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a handy converter here. If you have problems, please describe them in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I dl'd it, but for some reason it wouldn't convert.


[ QUOTE ]
An important difference between raising in this spot and raising in a similar spot in NLHE is that if you're wrong, you only lose a couple of extra bets in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

[ QUOTE ]
Losing an extra $4 or so with quads isn't something to beat yourself up over

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Also true. I mean, lets face it it is very rare to lose with aces full, let alone quads. We were just having some friendly debate, and he said that bet calling was far and away the best line. He has played pretty much only nl holdem in his life where I have prolly 100k hands of non holdem and quite a fair amount of limit in my day too.

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

The limp behind of 3rd street is OK at this buyin. In general, I don't mind it with all low cards out.

You might raise 4th.

Not jamming the river is terrible. Quads are rare, and he probably has aces full.

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

If you're not going to empty-out raising a probable full house with four of a kind you deserve to lose your poker license.

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

Poker license? I barely know 'er

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're not going to empty-out raising a probable full house with four of a kind you deserve to lose your poker license.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Help settle an argument between two stud fishies
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're not going to empty-out raising a probable full house with four of a kind you deserve to lose your poker license.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur. My friend disagreed. He had quads obviously.