1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Hello there, STTS...

We've gotten some feedback recently regarding the structure of our 1-table sit'n'go tournaments, in particular requesting that we do away with antes in the blind structure of these tournaments.

I'd like to read your thoughts on our 1-table sit'n'go structures in general, with particular attention paid to the question regarding antes.

Thank you for taking the time. The floor is yours...

All the best,

Bryan S.
Tournaments Administrator
PokerStars Poker Room Management Team

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Well it makes the later stages less interesting as there is less money in the pot when you shove so therefore less calculations and less marginal decisions.

We also have enough players stacking up chips and then sitting out early on when multi-tabling. Taking something away from the game.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

I'm in favor of keeping the antes in the game.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

I like antes because I think they are favorable to good players. Bad players don't really care about blind structure and antes so you won't win or lose any bad players if you change the structure. Some good players might switch to FTP when you have no more antes.

In general I like Stars structure. I think the problem of PartyPoker's structure is the big step between 100/200 and 200/400. You tried to make this transition easier by adding another round of 100/200 blinds with antes. I like that, but my preference would be a 150/300 level instead of another 100/200. If the antes kick in at 150/300 or at 200/400 should be discussed, but that would help the games run a bit smoother. I notice that many people are getting short when the 200/400 level starts and the game becomes a gamble during that period because even the bad players realize that they have to do something to survive. This leads to a "gambling stage" in my opinion. Which shouldn't be the interest of Pokerstars.

Greets

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

I think antes are a really good thing because they increase the edge of good players in games that are otherwise very tough to beat. Bad players just don't understand how they have to change their play when antes are in. Since the games are already tough and very few people have over 5-10% ROI even at lower levels, getting rid of antes could make alot of winning players just breakeven and they would stop playing. I'm curious what the arguments are in favor of getting rid of antes, because I can't imagine any winning player would support that. If poker as a whole is trying to establish itself as a game of skill and not just luck, then it seems that keeping elements that help distinguish good players from bad players -- such as antes -- would help the cause.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Antes are a big reason I play on stars instead of tilt, If you take out antes high probability I lower my stars play considerably, Im not a sng whale or anything but I pay somewhat significant rake atm and 99% of my play is at stars.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

I would prefer 100/200/25 be changed to 150/300/25 and keep the antes.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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I would prefer 100/200/25 be changed to 150/300/25 and keep the antes.

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Yeah I would be fine with some structure changes, Im thinking of alot of different things that COULD be changed depending on what you were going for, but antes are gonna be a huge issue I think with most regs.

beserious people would still be winning just like they do on FTP with no antes, the game just plays different and you have to adjust, personally I just much prefer how the game plays with antes.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

old party structure

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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old party structure

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and fix the rake in the turbos so the percentage decreases as stakes increase. Ideally the rake for SNGs should be capped at like $5 but I don't think you'll go for that.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

I think you should lower the rake and keep your structure as it is.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

I don't think it's smart to mess with the structure. And I do think you should be seriously considering doing some (at least minor) reductions of the rake in the turbos. You have lost a lot of high stake sng traffic lately, and I guess this will spread gradually to the lower levels in the future if you don't adjust the rakes.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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I would prefer 100/200/25 be changed to 150/300/25 and keep the antes.

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Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

I will be extremely aggravated if you get rid of antes. I play a lot of high stakes sit and gos. Please devote less time to considering whether or not to change a structure which is fine and more time finding fish for high stakes SNGs.

Ryan

ryanghall on Stars.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

keep the antes please

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Lower rake universally on SNGs. $30+2, $50+3, $100+5, $200+8 and $500+10 would be better. When basically noone is beating the high-stakes SNGs for more than the rake, it is clearly too high.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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I would prefer 100/200/25 be changed to 150/300/25 and keep the antes.

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I like the 100/200/25 level. If anything was going to be changed, change the 200/400/25 level to 150/300/25 so that people can't stall you into the 400 big blind, which happens constantly.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

leave the antes lower the stinkin' rake. we pay more money in 1 sng than a $3000 pot rakes in NL cash.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

The 100/200/25 level is awesome. It's the same amount of chips in the pot 6-handed as 150/300 so I don't see what the fuss is about. We're all used to the structure the way it is and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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I would prefer 100/200/25 be changed to 150/300/25 and keep the antes.

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Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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I would prefer 100/200/25 be changed to 150/300/25 and keep the antes.

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I like the 100/200/25 level. If anything was going to be changed, change the 200/400/25 level to 150/300/25 so that people can't stall you into the 400 big blind, which happens constantly.

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I'm fine with this too, but know that there tends to be hostility toward extending the time of turbos, even if only by a few minutes. My main problem with the 100/200/25 to 200/400/25 is the sudden change from a 10 to a 5 BB stack which needs to be smoothed. I don't really care how they smooth it, just that it happens.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

omg do not change the antes, i will pee and poo my pants simultameously if that happens.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

omg please keep antes.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Switch to the old party structure and I won't be able to hide my erection for a week.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

the rake on the turbos is retarded in that the % paid varies greater and lower and greater and lower as you move up the buyins.

when we asked for something between the $25+2s and the $55+5s and you came up with the $32+3s that was pretty disgusting and it's no wonder they never run.

a Hypothetic Rake Restructuring Proposal was proposed here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=8897240

personaly i'd be happy to see the $25+2 replaced with a $28+2 and the $55+5 replaced with a $56+4

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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Lower rake universally on SNGs. $30+2, $50+3, $100+5, $200+8 and $500+10 would be better. When basically noone is beating the high-stakes SNGs for more than the rake, it is clearly too high.

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If we want this, and I agree that we do, obviously, we're going to have to find a way to make it beneficial to Stars as well. I'd like to think it would attract more players, but I don't think asking them to make less money is necessarily going to work.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

The 100/200/25 level has always seemed like an oddball to me, replacing it with 150/300 or 150/300/25 would seem to make sense.

Any structure changes are way down the list of importance when compared to the rake progression in the turbos, though. If $15+1 is viable (for Stars), then $30+2, $45+3, and $60+4 should be, too. For that matter, why not just make the total buy-ins more round and go for $14+1, $28+2, $42+3, $56+4, etc.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Thanks for the thread Bryan, as everyone is mentioning, the stalling is the big issue and has really gotten out of control latey in the 9 and 10 man SNGs. Just no jump from 100/200 to 200/400. Whether that means adding an extra level (150/300) or replacing one of the current 100/200 levels with 150/300 (either no ante for the one 100/200 level, or 100/200 with ante), it would go a long ways.

Stalling on Full Tilt (no BB increase > 33%) and Party (blind increase based on # hands instead of time) are pretty much nonexistent given their structures, which makes for a more pleasant SNG experience for just about everyone.

Edit: and that 150/300 level with w/25 ante for consistency, of course.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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Lower rake universally on SNGs. $30+2, $50+3, $100+5, $200+8 and $500+10 would be better. When basically noone is beating the high-stakes SNGs for more than the rake, it is clearly too high.

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If we want this, and I agree that we do, obviously, we're going to have to find a way to make it beneficial to Stars as well. I'd like to think it would attract more players, but I don't think asking them to make less money is necessarily going to work.

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Imo if rake was reduced and the games were sped up a bit(either through blind levels or tournament time) it could definitely work to achieve a similar or greater amount of revenue.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Everything Gramps said and lower rake.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

FWIW I love antes, bad players don't take advantage of them, and removing them will cost me plenty of $$$ and probably cause me to jump quite a bit to Full Tilt, where I can get rakeback, and since I'm not supernova on stars, rakeback would yield extra $$$.

And the rake on these things at all but the 16s is retarded. At the very least, bump up the FPPs and stop making your FPP bonuses so weak that it would be more worthwhile to sell FPP items on ebay than to clear a ridiculous bonus that I have to "purchase" and then ensure that I complete with more play or what--I'll be SOL?. Also, make a reasonable level between the 27s and 60s. No one wants to play 30+3. Should be 15+1, 31+2, 48+3... this rake is driving everyone to cash. Reward me for PAYING MORE at your site. The achievable ROIs at the top levels really make me feel like I'll have to switch games at some point, which will cost stars money. The soul crushing variance that comes with a 2-3% roi at the top levels is tough to stand.


So keep antes, make STTs not suck, and if you do feel a need to change the turbo structure at all--what Gramps said, as he's played probably more than most anybody.

While we're at it, please make 100 mandatory buyin cash tables, please. And for god sakes, add a Turbo and 9max filter to your STTs.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

FWIW, I feel the rake is more than fair on all of the lower stakes sit and gos, but on the high ones it's absolutely ludicrous. Anyone with any skill should be able to beat the 27s and even 60s for a real pretty penny, but after that the player pool is good enough that only the very top players are making any money at all, so people leave SNGs, then the games get tougher, then more people leave, rinse, wash, repeat.

Note that the 1050s and 2190s virtually never run anymore and at times I saw 7 2190s running at once before. The 555s are dying out very quickly and usually aren't running, and lately the 335s haven't been running much either.

I did send a very large email to Stars explaining all this and much more and had a response saying that it would be forwarded to whatever department. Nobody got back to me.

Ryan

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Oh, Bryan, could you explain what is going on with the 9man and 10man turbos at the 225s lately? Is this just a testing ground? Are you considering this for all levels?

I kind of like the 10 mans myself.

However, if you are going to change this, please do not let more than 1 10-person SNG load at once for each level. It seems whenever the first person signs up for one, a new one pops up to start loading. Some jokers sign up for like 9 different 225s. It clogs the lobby and generally makes things a nuisance.

Ryan

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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Everything Gramps said and lower rake.

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Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Make them hand-based instead of time-based. Then people won't stall. (e.g. 10 hands per level instead of 10 min. per level)

Also, add CHEAPER SNGs. Like 10-cent and 50-cent ones.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Oh, another thing: Add Beginners Tournaments.

Bodog has great SNGs. Example:

2.20 buyin. 10-seat. Payout = 6-5-4-3-2

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Keep antes.

Lower rake.

Attract lots of bad players.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

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leave the antes lower the stinkin' rake. we pay more money in 1 sng than a $3000 pot rakes in NL cash.

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i dont care 1 way or the other a/b the rake but this point is really dumb

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Agreed, and can someone give us the equivalent of what 30 mins of cash generates in rake for comparison at a 9 max table, so we can sorta compare apples to ... oranges.

Re: 1-table S&Gs - your feedback requested
 

Im pretty happy with the stuctures. Maybe smooth out the 100/200 to 200/400 transition like other people have said. I'm definately not in favour of removing antes.

On the other hand the rakes as you move up in stakes are pretty outrageous. The percentage of buyin goes down till you get to the 16s - so far so good. Then unfathomably it starts going up again, peaking I think at the 60s. Even for higher than this it only goes down slowly to the point where there are only a few high stakes players actually making +roi before fpps.

If you made a fairer structure so that the percentage of buyin went down at each level there would be a lot more winning players at the higher levels and the losing players wouldnt lose as fast. I think this would lead to a pretty significant increase in volumes.