a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

there haven't been too many interesting strategy posts in HSNL in god knows how long, so i'm volunteering a hand. depending on how good discussion gets, i may post some more.

This hand is from a session I played against him towards the end of the summer. He's very very tough heads up and loves to checkraise c-bets, more frequently than anyone I've ever played. He follows through with his entire range very, very often. He also peels very light, will float... very tough to get to fold without putting all the money in. He raises something close to 100% of the button and defends his BB way way more than he should. He calls lots of 3-bets but does not 3-bet very often himself (I'm not sure if this is indicative of him during this specific session or in general, b/c I remember seeing hands vs durr and aba way back when where he would 3-bet very light preflop).

I've been getting pretty trixy postflop but for the most part have not been hitting any good bluff catchers or found many good spots to slowplay to induce bluffs. When the money has gone in it's been pretty standard (top pair vs better top pair, top pair vs overpair, draws vs two pair, etc).

Effective stacks are 80k and I open 58cc. PA defends.

Flop is 4c6c6d. Check, I bet 1600 and get c/red to 7100. I call.

Turn Tc and he bets 16k, which is very close to pot. I call.

River 4s. He thinks for a bit and bets 45k.

Who calls, and why?

I'm curious about what people think of my flop and turn play, too.

If you fold here, what is the best hand you look him up with?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

i'd prob fold here but call with... about the king high flush

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

why? you think he vbets a bigger flush?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

can't he be putting us on stuff like JJ/TT and just be looking to get a fold? its gross but i think calling is reasonable since hes so damn aggressive.

tbh, the read you posted points sooooooo much in favor of a call that i think maybe you called and lost, and are doubting yourself. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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why? you think he vbets a bigger flush?

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Given the way they'd been playing I'm pretty damn sure he bets better flushes. He def would vbet the nut flush, and probably lower......

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

i know its good to mix it up and yada yada yada, but since he knows that we know he c/rs alot, why not push the turn since we could be doing it with less than a flush when we think he is FOS

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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i know its good to mix it up and yada yada yada, but since he knows that we know he c/rs alot, why not push the turn since we could be doing it with less than a flush when we think he is FOS

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i would guess bc krantz estimates PA's range for calling the turn raise is narrower than his range for making a huge-ass river bet

also it seems from a logical standpoint that krantz is calling PA's turn bet (compared to raising) with a huge percentage of his range. given stacksizes krantz should figure to just call the turn with hands like trips, low flush, KK. i mean, this boils down to basic handreading which i could admittedly be incorrect at from afar.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I think a flop 3bet is really good. I don't see him bluff-4betting, and it's going to be very hard for him to play a hand like TT.

River is ugly because the flush+ is a pretty reasonable part of your range, so I don't know how often he's bluffing. Does he check an overpair on the river? Or the turn? Does he bet smaller on the turn with an overpair? Sucks that basically no lower flushes are in his range and it seem like he either has one of those or a boat. I think it's a fold but I would probably call in practice.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

2 comments

-from your description PA sounds like a superstar HU, hearing talk like that is the sort of thing that makes me change my HU game into a spewy crazy monster.

-not much analysis other than a 6 doesn't seem right. maybe a flush draw he picked up on the turn, or more likely an actual higher flush than yours.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

there is no way i am folding that.i call

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I think your line is perfect and can't see doing anything else on any street. The hand just comes down to call, fold, or push the river. I think pushing is very very thin, so I wouldn't do it - but I definitely wouldn't rule it out from consideration (as a bluff obviously). He check/raises so often on the flop, that I would definitely expect him to check/raise big hands (like trips) on the flop. And probably flush draws, too, although he may be less likely to do that since you have been tricky postflop and may be more likely to pop him up on the flop or turn (and to call a push lightly - he probably knows you're a station, too). So I think his range is weighted more towards made hands and air on the flop than draws. Then his bet on the turn can certainly be a semi-bluff picked up on the turn, or a made hand protecting (or of course a higher flush - but I still think this is a small part of his range). Then on the river, I would think he'd bet a little smaller so that it's easier for you to push if he has a full house. His hand looks a lot more like a bluff following through or a hand like TT or something looking for thin value. I'd call.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a flop 3bet is really good. I don't see him bluff-4betting, and it's going to be very hard for him to play a hand like TT.

River is ugly because the flush+ is a pretty reasonable part of your range, so I don't know how often he's bluffing. Does he check an overpair on the river? Or the turn? Does he bet smaller on the turn with an overpair? Sucks that basically no lower flushes are in his range and it seem like he either has one of those or a boat. I think it's a fold but I would probably call in practice.

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I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.

g-p,

I think given the read given, raising turn would be a mistake. I would not mind at all calling the turn and calling like 99% of river cards vs someone who is so likely to vbet worse or bluff off chips.

Krantz,
I think in these spots you always think people are more FOS than they actually are (I don't mean you specifically). The major problem with calling is that he really can have any boat since he calls so light preflop, as well as most better flushes. I think we are up against a total bluff... or a fairly large range of valuebetting hands. I wouldn't use the history to talk myself into calling here, I think this is a fold.

I think meta wise it is a bit painful to fold a hand as good as 8 high flush here given how insanely aggro he is playing, but I can count on more than 2 hands the amount of times I have wanted badly to fold a hand and told myself I "had" to call... hopefully i dont do that too much anymore.

PA KNOWS you know his crazy image, and he also knows you cant be calling that turn too light. If you are calling the flop he prob thinks your range is flush draw, any pair, probably lots of ace highs, some other straight draws. When you call the turn barrel i suspect he doesnt put you on as light of a range.

I really am tempted by a call because I think he follows through on a bluff so often on a board like this, but overall i think it's a real close fold.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I dont think that a turn raise is the best choice, since Krantz wrote that PA follows through with his entire range very often. I think calling is best here, and let him bet river, unfortunately another 4 hit the board which obv makes it very hard to call, but I still think that I would call river.
Same goes for flop, I like calling here too, since Krantz is just risking 5500 with a lot of outs, and can be pretty certain that PA is going to pay him off on turn if he hits.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

How often is he CRing paired flops, or unlikely-to-have-hit flops in general? Has it been your tendency to call alot or to reraise in those spots, when you have a hand/choose to play back?

Do you think he expects a fold or a play if you have a big ace?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
How often is he CRing paired flops, or unlikely-to-have-hit flops in general? Has it been your tendency to call alot or to reraise in those spots, when you have a hand/choose to play back?

Do you think he expects a fold or a play if you have a big ace?

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good questions. something i neglected to add is that he LOVES checkraising paired boards on the flop, way more so than any other type of board texture. i've been calling and folding a lot of turns in general, although i did call and jam a turn once and he folded (when we had shallower stacks, though).

two hands of note: the first time i 3-bet his c/r on a paired board with a flush draw i got 4-bet really small and thought about jamming Q high no draw but didn't. another hand i got c/red 200bb deep when i had a gutshot and BD nut flush draw. he bet the turn, which made the flush and gave me the NFD, i raised, and he thought for a long time and moved in and i folded.

i think based on the way i played flop and turn he does not think i'm as strong as a flush (which is why I just called and didn't raise the turn).

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

in what instances has PA checked the turn after a c/r? very rarely?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

You didnt supply any reads of his betsizing, but his riverbetsize looks more like bluff/FH than a worse flush valuebetting, especially considering the sick price he would be getting if you shoved.

If your read is correct he will have pretty wide range after the flop. On the turn he probably follows through his entire range since the flush completes.

With this in mind you probably have the best hand a big % of the time. Since the river brings another scarecard he will probably fire the third barrel a decent amount too since you might lay down a flush or might have something like 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8x.

So I vote for cry, then call

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Uhm tough situation.
I like the flop play, don't think 3betting there is good without a specific background this deep.
Raising the turn in this scenario could generate an ugly situation, I mean for 100bb this is an easy turn shove but with the given stacksizes we won't get action from worse hands all that often and it's hard to fold against a shove with all the money invested.
If PA's range is really that loose on the turn then raising will get him to fold lots of hands and we deny him to bluff the river again.
On the other hand calling the turn has it's downsides as well, there are lots of cards we don't want to see: 4s (3), Ts (3), 6s (2), any club (8) for a total of 16 cards in the deck that would generate trouble.
He cannot benefit from all these cards so we should considern on the turn how we want to proceed on the river if PA bets almost all of these cards.

Krantz you said he defends his BB a lot pf but doesn't 3bet that much so does that mean he would mix it up with hands like JJ+ some of the time? Is 77 a call for him most of the time ?
I am trying to generate a handrange that is reasonable for the given scenario.
I think it's fair to assume the turn doesn't change anything
so there are 66644 and 44466 + higher flushs to worry about.
I assume he would play all of these hands the same way and we cannot read anything into the bet amounts and his line but I think it's fair to assume he doesn't have a worse flush in this spot..
Any assumptions how he would play with 77+ and air in that spot ?
We're getting 2,1:1 / need ~32,5% equity so it's very tempting to call if he really has such a wide range in those spots.
From his perspective Would you play TT, 6x, 4X and a flush the same way and could you fold 77+ / flush in this spot often enough ?
To make it short, is his loose range loose enough to bluff here 1/3 of the time or more ?
If he thinks you fold out small flushs and pairs 77+ this should be a call even tho it's very thin.

Obviously raising is another option but I cannot estimate how many better hands he would fold on the river and how he perceives you and your lines, so I cannot comment on that.

PS: just saw Krantz second post and I tend more to calling, if he thinks we don't have the flush all to often because he
cannot expect us to call 77+ all that often and he doesn't need to be correct all too often with this read to follow the river with a bluff.
The way you explained the hand it's very hard to argue for a fold, hope this is an objective description of the scenario, otherwise this is getting nowhere.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Him checking this river would scare me alot more than his lead.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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Him checking this river would scare me alot more than his lead.

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what??

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Huk, I think the fact we have a flush is something thats put too much emphasis on. We could just as well have a pair here, granted he wouldn't slowplay preflop AA-JJ and play it this strong. I guess JJ is reasonble given PF, but does he really bet that this big, I somewhat doubt that. So, just treat our hand as AcTx or so and decide whether we still want to call, fact is, we have lots of stronger hands in our range at this point, thus I can see no real reason to call with the low flush here, unless his bluffing frequnecies is really fundamentally flawed, but basically I doubt this is a preferred bluffing card for him given a 4 is actually atleast a decent part of your range.

Also, furthermore, I think him having a 4 except 44 or 64 is pretty much never happening either.

Edit: We'll I guess we beat 23cc and 73cc and with it being PA, he can probably have those, but that is so marginally better than a pure bluffcatcher that I don't really think it makes enough of a difference. It would make a difference if we have very, very few hands better than bluffcatchers, but that is not the case.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Pretty easy to be on the wrong level here but yeah I don't think he'd put you on a flush very often, alot of people would raise the turn with a flush given the history of you bluff-raising a flush-completing turn. Probably wasn't a paired board in that hand but still, sounds like paired boards should be given less consideration than usual in this matchup. So I like your turn call alot.

On the river, even though its so tough for him to be valuebetting worse I think I'd go with the hand. Disagree with you MDMA, even though we might have stronger hands in our range I think this is still at the very high end. We have flush-blockers which make up a decent part of the range he's representing, and like you said beat a couple of hands he could be v-betting. Simplistic thinking but I would guess it's a close decision and that, barring any 'feel', letting this flush-blocker factor decide it is fine.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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unless his bluffing frequnecies is really fundamentally flawed, but basically I doubt this is a preferred bluffing card for him given a 4 is actually atleast a decent part of your range.

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From the OP it really does sound like PA's bluffing frequency IS flawed, which is why I think this hand boils down to the accuracy of the read.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

flop is fuckimg standard, turn could be a raise, because he could shove trips and every river is scaring us.

On the other side he`s aggro and could be trying to get us off our Tp or so.

Actually i would call turn myself and call most rivers.

After this river we have to ask ourself, if he`s vbetting AT, JJ+ here ( some would say turning into a bluff).
wheater he`s more likelz to bet a flush or call a bet.

I think it`s a call, because he could finally decide to turn some weired pair into a bluff or really have total air

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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in what instances has PA checked the turn after a c/r? very rarely?

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not very often at all, and he checkraises a lot. fun, right? i changed up my c-betting frequency after awhile, though, but this hand occurred before i started getting tricky like that.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
You didnt supply any reads of his betsizing, but his riverbetsize looks more like bluff/FH than a worse flush valuebetting, especially considering the sick price he would be getting if you shoved.


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i couldn't figure out any bet-sizing tells

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Can someone list their thoughts (i.e. detail percentages for each range) on the makeup of PA's bluffs his monsters and thin value-bets. This is a really great hand.

Bluffing:
Total Air (less than King High)/Underpair counterfeited
Overpair/Middle-pair/Ace High/10 turned into bluff

Thin/relatively thin Value Betting:
Ace high
Overpair
Lower flush
Higher Flush

Monsters:

Quads
Boat/Overboat
Nutflush

We need to hear Strasser's views on psbetting for value and bluffing and two-way bets on similar boards when there is metagame involved.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

VV cool post.
Simple: PA is not a spew monkey bluff tard. U have a bluff catcher by the river, so fold. Only thing he's vbetting is the full house or maybe better flush.

What hand range can u put him on given read?
PF: Anything suited, 22+, 67o+, Not AA/KK/QQ (i've seen him just defend HU with jacks).
Flop: AJ-AK,QKd,JTc+,45d, A(2-5)s, AXc,any 8+ out draw, 33-99, A4o,7c8x
Turn:AXc,TT,x6,7c8x,44,QJc+
River:AcTx (as a bluff), x6, TT, 44, QJc+

Obv the math against this range makes it a call vs the logic of the hand. But I think u need to call here for metagame.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
g-p,

I think given the read given, raising turn would be a mistake. I would not mind at all calling the turn and calling like 99% of river cards vs someone who is so likely to vbet worse or bluff off chips.


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you dont really say why.

since we has such a huge range here, we should be shoving some weak hands sometimes, which means we should also be able to show up with a flush here sometimes. a % of the time we should raise turn definitely.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Do you think PA will think we are shoving light on the turn?

I would expect him to think our hand is at the bottom of our valueshoving range on the turn.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

krantz said hes "not been hitting any good bluff catchers or found many good spots to slowplay to induce bluffs"

so im guessing he hasn't shoved any turns really thin (which maybe he should consider)

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

"Simple: PA is not a spew monkey bluff tard. U have a bluff catcher by the river, so fold. Only thing he's vbetting is the full house or maybe better flush."

"River:AcTx (as a bluff), x6, TT, 44, QJc+"

"Obv the math against this range makes it a call vs the logic of the hand. But I think u need to call here for metagame."

Hmmmm.....I guess now I must do the obligatory SAALLLAAAAAZZZZZZAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRR

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

vn hand Krantz, ty.

can you remember how high a pocket pair he can possibly flat?

I am just trying to think of the worse hand he could VB with here that would get valuecut, and I'm having trouble, I think if I got to this flop and elected not to 3 bet with a hand like QQ JJ TT, I'd play it the same for value and feel good about myself with probably more of a moderate image.

remember though, you still beat the random straitdraws and total monkeyair.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I really like Ansky's post and agree you should fold. I also think the rest of the hand is played well.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
vn hand Krantz, ty.

can you remember how high a pocket pair he can possibly flat?


[/ QUOTE ]

i would think he calls with TT and JJ significantly more frequently than he reraises them this deep. QQ+ and he would reraise.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I call here for sure. He almost never has the six, and rarely the 4. More importantly, he thinks you never have it, so he bets. call

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call here for sure. He almost never has the six, and rarely the 4. More importantly, he thinks you never have it, so he bets. call

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Why do you think he never has the 6 or 4? Krantz said that he defends way too much...I think his range here is pretty big, so for that reason alone I do not agree with you that this is a insta call, and, since krantz called both the flop and turn bet PA has to put him on a pretty strong hand.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call here for sure. He almost never has the six, and rarely the 4. More importantly, he thinks you never have it, so he bets. call

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He can absolutely have the 6. A 4 is a little weirder, but its possible.

He has to be capable of showing up with KT or something along those lines. I'll be back after class with more thoughts, but i think hes capable of vbetting worse here a fair amount.

With a Khigh flush, this is a much easier call obviously, but i dont think we can fold this to PA.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

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So? I'd rather 3bet with total air here. What are you doing if 4 bet?