Cost of exposed hole cards
 

In the other HSP online player thread, coltranedog wrote

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They should just organize something on FTP where they schedule a higher buyin game have it run for X hours and then replay it the next day with the hole cards exposed on FTP. None of these guys has a personality that would make watching them play live on TV any more exciting than watching their avatars play on the internet.

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which made me think about the following situation:

What if FTP actually wanted to run that type of game and planned on incenting the players by paying them a fixed amount of money. So, basically, it's like a tourney with non-escalating blinds, where at the end of some time limit, everyone takes home their chips instead of having any set payout structure. So let's say they would play 300/600 with a 100K buyin for an hour. Play will start when the 6-handed table fills. The players have to play for the full hour (they get some significant monetary penalty for sitting out or whatever).

One week later, the full hour will be replayed publicly with everyone's hole cards exposed. How low do you think FTP would have to make the buyin to this event in order to fill the seats? E.g. with a 90K buyin, FTP would basically be paying each participant 10K to play in the event (since they only pay 90K but start with 100K chips). People could rebuy as many times as they want, with no discount (so rebuy 100K chips for $100K.)

Edit: For Yeti, cliff notes - how much would FTP have to pay people in order to play 300/600 NL for an hour if the game will be replayed publicly the following week with all hole cards exposed? Subtract that number from 100K and vote!

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you worded this very weirdly.

Re: Cost of exposed hole cards
 

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you worded this very weirdly.

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Is it unclear? I guess I could have explained it more simply, but I'm on a conference call at work and therefore distracted.

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Test

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I think pretty much any decent high stakes player would do this for 90K, because they are basically getting 10k for an hours work.

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I think pretty much any decent high stakes player would do this for 90K, because they are basically getting 10k for an hours work.

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If you're currently a winner in the game, wouldn't it only be to your disadvantage to show your opponents exactly how you play for an hour? Yes, you could play a non-standard game for an hour, but if it's suboptimal, it could easily cause you to blow through the 10K playing in that big a game for an hour...

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I'd do it for $20K [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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As stands, do you think FT loses much business to Stars because of their current policy of exposing mucked hands at showdown to non-playing observers (i.e. or for that matter allowing datamining)? Would that change significantly if they started revealing mucked hands to observers in pre-showdown folds as well?

Granted this is not an insigificant difference, revealing complete preflop hand ranges, bluffs and big folds obvious adds a wealth to the value of datamining. I just wonder how much business a site would lose if they implemented this policy - even if they did so on a 24 hour delay?

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If six people play, and the "buy-in" is 90k, how will FTP make $60k from this?

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If six people play, and the "buy-in" is 90k, how will FTP make $60k from this?

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they can consider it an "advertising" expense

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i think a lot of them would take any reasonable amount then just play weird for an hour

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I think pretty much any decent high stakes player would do this for 90K, because they are basically getting 10k for an hours work.

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If you're currently a winner in the game, wouldn't it only be to your disadvantage to show your opponents exactly how you play for an hour? Yes, you could play a non-standard game for an hour, but if it's suboptimal, it could easily cause you to blow through the 10K playing in that big a game for an hour...

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Brian Townsend made the comment on Pokerwire radio a couple of days ago that he made the CR videos because he was so skilled at adapting to various circumstances. I think any high stakes player should be able to do this at least somewhat.

So yes, it is obviously a disadvantage, but even if you play sub optimally for an hour, you would benefit from the deal. Hell, you could even fold your 120 hands for the entire hour for a loss of 30BB.

Re: Cost of exposed hole cards
 

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If six people play, and the "buy-in" is 90k, how will FTP make $60k from this?

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FTP would be LOSING 60K. But the idea is that it would be paying for advertising. I'm sure such a replay would attract HUGE numbers of people. And if you made it only FTP account holders could watch, or charge $5 to watch or whatever, i'm sure they'd make it back quickly.

Re: Cost of exposed hole cards
 

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I think pretty much any decent high stakes player would do this for 90K, because they are basically getting 10k for an hours work.

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If you're currently a winner in the game, wouldn't it only be to your disadvantage to show your opponents exactly how you play for an hour? Yes, you could play a non-standard game for an hour, but if it's suboptimal, it could easily cause you to blow through the 10K playing in that big a game for an hour...

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Brian Townsend made the comment on Pokerwire radio a couple of days ago that he made the CR videos because he was so skilled at adapting to various circumstances. I think any high stakes player should be able to do this at least somewhat.

So yes, it is obviously a disadvantage, but even if you play sub optimally for an hour, you would benefit from the deal. Hell, you could even fold your 120 hands for the entire hour for a loss of 30BB.

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30BB is 18K. So yeah, I guess 20K is really the limit on this type of thing since that would be $2K risk-free money. But whatever.

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If six people play, and the "buy-in" is 90k, how will FTP make $60k from this?

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FTP would be LOSING 60K. But the idea is that it would be paying for advertising. I'm sure such a replay would attract HUGE numbers of people. And if you made it only FTP account holders could watch, or charge $5 to watch or whatever, i'm sure they'd make it back quickly.

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Yeah, I meant make $60k in additional revenue to cover up for the $10k they give each player. I'm just a bit sceptical, but then again I know nothing about marketing [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Quick correction. I just realized that a loss of 30BB (18k) is enough to offset the gain (10k), but I still think you shouldn't be giving TOO much away in a one hour session.

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i dont think it would be profitable for full tilt. also i think the price od doing this would vary from player to player as they would have to work out how much it would take for this to be profitable for them. ie. if they thought this would take 5k off the earnings P/H but were getting paid 10k P/H tey would do it, but i think full tilt would have to pay alot of $$$ for this to be profitable for players.

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As stands, do you think FT loses much business to Stars because of their current policy of exposing mucked hands at showdown to non-playing observers (i.e. or for that matter allowing datamining)?

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I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I think only players in the game can see the mucked hands, that's the way it's always been for me I believe.

EDIT: Just tried it. As an observer, you can only see cards that were shown at showdown -- not mucked ones.

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i dont think it would be profitable for full tilt. also i think the price od doing this would vary from player to player as they would have to work out how much it would take for this to be profitable for them. ie. if they thought this would take 5k off the earnings P/H but were getting paid 10k P/H tey would do it, but i think full tilt would have to pay alot of $$$ for this to be profitable for players.

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that's why i said, "what's the max buyin for which they could get 6 players?". they obv can't vary the price by player.

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twp - they can't?
Don't some of the pros there already get compensated better than others? (I really don't know..am just guessing)

If Ivey says he'll join the game but he expects a little more coin for his time I would think FTP would consider giving it to him.

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good players are good because they adjust to their opponent's play. not because they raise 84s utg or c/r bluff the turn. the info they "give away" shouldn't hurt them much if at all. i think the bigger concern would be making sure there is a fish in it, but then again most of the nosebleed players have ego issues and would probably play regardless of the line-up. i bet ftp could get this going without any discount, possibly $5k if they were feeling generous.

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The only person they need to convince to play for the hour is noataima.

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i bet ftp could get this going without any discount, possibly $5k if they were feeling generous.

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that's kind of what I was thinking.
How do they get the guys to come in to play on HSP?
Or at Live at the Bike when that was going?

Seems more like an ego thing than anything else.

If FTP arranged something like this with a definite day and time perhaps the players would show and wouldn't need all that much encouragement.

I don't follow it at all, but right now it seems like you just have to catch the right time for a high-stakes game. So-and-so is sitting at such-and-such table and waiting for anyone to take him on.

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If six people play, and the "buy-in" is 90k, how will FTP make $60k from this?

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FTP would be LOSING 60K. But the idea is that it would be paying for advertising. I'm sure such a replay would attract HUGE numbers of people. And if you made it only FTP account holders could watch, or charge $5 to watch or whatever, i'm sure they'd make it back quickly.

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I think you're greatly over-estimating the number of players who care enough to watch/learn something from watching HSP. Poker sites make their money off fish/the recreational player. There is no way they would make back the 60K lost in player fees.

Then again, there are making just about everyone FTP Pro's these days. I'm honestly, Greg Mueller??? He's the Phil Gordon of poker players.

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The only person they need to convince to play for the hour is noataima.

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I don't think you're going to figure out someone's game by watching them one table for an hour anyway. You may gain a few insights, but that's about it.

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I'm honestly, Greg Mueller??? He's the Phil Gordon of poker players.

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i thought phil gordon was the phil gordon of poker players

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On the prima network they had 25 50 NL tables where the hole cards were exposed in a delayed, commentated web cast. Lots of the regulars played these tables. amongst the exceptions were prahlad who wouldnt show his cards for free. wasnt all that cool, but of course would be a diff. story with top names playing 3 6