17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

Blinds 5k/10k, 17 players left, 20 got paid. $25 buy in, Chip leader had around 70k, short stack had about 15, I was sitting around 55k. Decided to chop 17 ways for $240 a piece (4th place money). Was this a good chop?

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

Wtf, were you all late for something?

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

No, but when the chipleader only has 7 bb, the only move is all in preflop for everyone

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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No, but when the chipleader only has 7 bb, the only move is all in preflop for everyone

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So the short stacks will be dropping like flies, why pay them off?

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

chopping 17 ways just seems like a ridiculous waste of time

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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No, but when the chipleader only has 7 bb, the only move is all in preflop for everyone

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So the short stacks will be dropping like flies, why pay them off?

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Everybody's a short stack

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

the first mistake seems like playing a tournament with a structure where this can happen

but yea most people are probably going to panic and start shoving...this chop doesnt make that much sense...wait it out play proper shortstack strategy and pick your spots

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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So the short stacks will be dropping like flies, why pay them off?

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Mathematically I don't think it was too bad - your chance of finishing less than 4th was very high. That of course assumes you wouldn't have another opportunity to chop at a later time for more money, which is almost certainly not the case.

A 17 way chop is pretty lame. I would rather take my chances and talk about a chop when we get to 6-8 players. What was the approx total prize pool?

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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So the short stacks will be dropping like flies, why pay them off?

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Mathematically I don't think it was too bad - your chance of finishing less than 4th was very high. That of course assumes you wouldn't have another opportunity to chop at a later time for more money, which is almost certainly not the case.

A 17 way chop is pretty lame. I would rather take my chances and talk about a chop when we get to 6-8 players. What was the approx total prize pool?

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Total prize pool was around 4200. Everybody wanted to chop at 20 players when the blinds were 3/6k but I was the only one who objected and then when the blinds raised to 5/10k with 17 players and the chip leader only had 7bb I decided to agree with the chop.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

Meh. I'd want to keep playing, but it sucks being the only holdout to a chop. If you're comfortable with being singled out and having people gun for you, then keep playing - otherwise just chop and get to the cash game.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

i agree, everyone else would be extremely pissed with you (probably) if you didnt chop the second time around.... also it probably wasnt worth wasting ur time sticking around/ gambooling if you could take 4th place money right then and there

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

Would be somewhat amusing to try to bargain for a little bit more in the chop since your stack was larger and everyone was so interested in doing it.

Being the only holdout definitely sucks.
But if it was just a situation of whether you took bad value by accepting a chop the answer is almost certainly yes...although this depends on the payout structure, where the button is, how long until the blinds move up again and how much they move up...etc etc.
In other words, there actually isn't enough information given to 100% accurately determine if the chop was a good idea.

If you were going to be in the BB in a couple hands and the blinds were going to move up to 25k-50k before it got to you then chopping was obviously a good idea.

But in most situations and making assumptions on the payout structure and how quickly the blinds are moving up I think you made a bad decision value-wise to accept the chop.

Just because the largest stack has 7 BB's and it's a shove-fest doesn't mean you have to knock yourself out first if you keep playing. All those short-stacks are going to be dropping out REALLY damn fast.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

They will be dropping out really damn fast, but it only takes one bad hand for you to be in jeopardy. The only thing I could say is never play in this tourney again. That is a terrible structure. With 5 BBs, it is unlikely that you would make it to 4th place. With one more ante raise and you are still back to square one.

I call it a good chop and a bad deal.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

That's an awful lot of people who let themselves get pretty short by not taking the fast structure into account...

I mean if you're going to play a small buy-in tourney in the 1st place, you might as well play it down a little further, at least to the final table. You paid the juice and spent a couple hours of your time, so it's not as if this is really a strictly EV-based decision anyway. You could distribute the prize money by stack size, which would be a little more fair but more a pain in the ass. It's not like your ever going to explain ChipEV to that kind of crowd so forget that idea.

But, if everyone else wants to chop, then hey chop it up and don't waste your time on that nonsense tournament anymore.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

A 17 way chop had to have some form of the Abilene paradox involved.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

I hate that people get so offended when you won't chop... it's like dude I don't play for 4th place money I'm playing for first place money! Blah /rant

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

"don't waste your time on that nonsense tournament anymore."


For some reason I am in disagreement with the majority opinion about this issue.
Depending on the juice, etc etc I think these turbo-type tourneys can be extremely profitable against a bunch of players who have no idea how to adjust.

Live, low buy-in type tourneys are going to have fast-ish structures no matter what. Everyone wants super deep-stack, long-structure tourneys even if it's only a $50 buy-in but that just isn't very realistic.
The players in these can be so spectacularly bad and fail to adjust for the structure that I have to imagine they can be extremely profitable if the juice isn't awful.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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"don't waste your time on that nonsense tournament anymore."


For some reason I am in disagreement with the majority opinion about this issue.
Depending on the juice, etc etc I think these turbo-type tourneys can be extremely profitable against a bunch of players who have no idea how to adjust.

Live, low buy-in type tourneys are going to have fast-ish structures no matter what. Everyone wants super deep-stack, long-structure tourneys even if it's only a $50 buy-in but that just isn't very realistic.
The players in these can be so spectacularly bad and fail to adjust for the structure that I have to imagine they can be extremely profitable if the juice isn't awful.

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Juice is only $5 of the $25 buy in.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
"don't waste your time on that nonsense tournament anymore."


For some reason I am in disagreement with the majority opinion about this issue.
Depending on the juice, etc etc I think these turbo-type tourneys can be extremely profitable against a bunch of players who have no idea how to adjust.

Live, low buy-in type tourneys are going to have fast-ish structures no matter what. Everyone wants super deep-stack, long-structure tourneys even if it's only a $50 buy-in but that just isn't very realistic.
The players in these can be so spectacularly bad and fail to adjust for the structure that I have to imagine they can be extremely profitable if the juice isn't awful.

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I'm headed out to Vegas in a couple weeks and am going to be playing some of these cheap tournaments with bad structures. What are the proper adjustments to make?

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

I don't think you should chop here. If you are the only hold-out, why not at least wait until a few more people are eliminated or you are down to the final table? You are in very little danger of being one of the next few out as long as you don't do anything stupid. I would try to accumulate chips against the smaller stacks, and if someone doubles through me and I get short, then I agree to the chop.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

Are you really playing this thing w/ such a miniscule buy-in for anything other than a decent payout?

Fine, you're all short stacks. I would use the little edge I have over everyone else who is shorter and gambool. I would rather take a chance at winning a decent sum of money than a 17 way chop


What are the top payouts btw? That obviously helps to determine this

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

I think in this kind of tourney you want the chop at some point. The question is can you wait until a few more shorter stacks get knocked off and then get the chop? Or by that time will everyone basically in "F U" mode because you twice said no to it. The problem you're facing is that not only are you dangerously low on chips, but when it's your BB you're nearly committed to calling the random all-in of any other short stack almost regardless of your cards.

I don't think the chop here is horrible. Obviously better later if there are multiple players at the 2bb level. So I like the chop here better than playing it all out, but less than I like chopping later if you can swing it that way also.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Juice is only $5 of the $25 buy in.

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Oh they're ONLY taking 25%? Play on

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Juice is only $5 of the $25 buy in.

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Oh they're ONLY taking 25%? Play on

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20%

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Juice is only $5 of the $25 buy in.

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Oh they're ONLY taking 25%? Play on

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20%

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Ok, not sure actually. The way I read it, it's $25 total which meant $20 tourney with $5 fee...which would be 25% since the fee is generally stated as a percentage of the money applied to the prize pool only. If it's $25+5 then yeah it's 20%. I read it as a $20+5. (not that it matters, still too high, i just had to convince myself I didn't suck at math when I wrote 25%)

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Are you really playing this thing w/ such a miniscule buy-in for anything other than a decent payout?

Fine, you're all short stacks. I would use the little edge I have over everyone else who is shorter and gambool. I would rather take a chance at winning a decent sum of money than a 17 way chop


What are the top payouts btw? That obviously helps to determine this

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I wanna say it was something like this.

3rd - 300
2nd - 500
1st - 750

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Juice is only $5 of the $25 buy in.

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Oh they're ONLY taking 25%? Play on

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20%

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Ok, not sure actually. The way I read it, it's $25 total which meant $20 tourney with $5 fee...which would be 25% since the fee is generally stated as a percentage of the money applied to the prize pool only. If it's $25+5 then yeah it's 20%. I read it as a $20+5. (not that it matters, still too high, i just had to convince myself I didn't suck at math when I wrote 25%)

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I do the math differently, I consider the total amount I pay as the buy in and then do the calculatation accordingly. But yea, definitely a high juice.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

If those figures are accurate you would need to finish in the top 4 > ~13.6% of the time to show any profit over the 17 way chop. Maybe a chop isn't so bad here. I still say play on.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

The other question is what are the other stacks like, not just chip leader & short stack. If you think they will all take a chop at any time then how many people are likely to go out in one orbit? If everyone has 50k or so like you then chop...if almost everyone has 20k then you know half of them are probably going out in one orbit or so. In which case you wait for half the field to bust then do the chop. (also depends how often you play here, being the only one to say no-chop might not be so great when you're shortstack next time and everyoen remembers)

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

Say you won't chop unless you get $400, which means everyone else will get $230. To them it looks like they are each giving up $10 to get guaranteed money, not realizing that you're making off like a bandit just for being the "lone dissenter".

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Say you won't chop unless you get $400, which means everyone else will get $230. To them it looks like they are each giving up $10 to get guaranteed money, not realizing that you're making off like a bandit just for being the "lone dissenter".

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This is the exact reason I posted this. After I got home I felt like I had left atleast 200 on the table by not demanding more money to chop. Realistically, everybody probably would have given me $20 a piece.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Juice is only $5 of the $25 buy in.

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Oh they're ONLY taking 25%? Play on

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20%

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Ok, not sure actually. The way I read it, it's $25 total which meant $20 tourney with $5 fee...which would be 25% since the fee is generally stated as a percentage of the money applied to the prize pool only. If it's $25+5 then yeah it's 20%. I read it as a $20+5. (not that it matters, still too high, i just had to convince myself I didn't suck at math when I wrote 25%)

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I do the math differently, I consider the total amount I pay as the buy in and then do the calculatation accordingly. But yea, definitely a high juice.

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so it's actually a 20+5 then?
That's pretty lousy juice and even with really crappy opponents will still be difficult to overcome.
Yeah, I wouldn't play this again unless there is some sort of guaranteed prize-pool to it that leads to better value than what the 20+5 actually implies.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Juice is only $5 of the $25 buy in.

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Oh they're ONLY taking 25%? Play on

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20%

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, not sure actually. The way I read it, it's $25 total which meant $20 tourney with $5 fee...which would be 25% since the fee is generally stated as a percentage of the money applied to the prize pool only. If it's $25+5 then yeah it's 20%. I read it as a $20+5. (not that it matters, still too high, i just had to convince myself I didn't suck at math when I wrote 25%)

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I do the math differently, I consider the total amount I pay as the buy in and then do the calculatation accordingly. But yea, definitely a high juice.

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so it's actually a 20+5 then?
That's pretty lousy juice and even with really crappy opponents will still be difficult to overcome.
Yeah, I wouldn't play this again unless there is some sort of guaranteed prize-pool to it that leads to better value than what the 20+5 actually implies.

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It's guaranteed 4k, usually they have an overlay, that's why I was playing it, but with the holiday weekend there were enough players to cover.

Edit - that tournament was only guaranteed 2k, some of their 25 buy in tourneys are 4k guaranteed and some are 2k. I thought it was the 4k.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Say you won't chop unless you get $400, which means everyone else will get $230. To them it looks like they are each giving up $10 to get guaranteed money, not realizing that you're making off like a bandit just for being the "lone dissenter".

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This is the exact reason I posted this. After I got home I felt like I had left atleast 200 on the table by not demanding more money to chop. Realistically, everybody probably would have given me $20 a piece.

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Playing with morons?
They take $220 each and you, not even the chip leader, get $560?

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Say you won't chop unless you get $400, which means everyone else will get $230. To them it looks like they are each giving up $10 to get guaranteed money, not realizing that you're making off like a bandit just for being the "lone dissenter".

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This is the exact reason I posted this. After I got home I felt like I had left atleast 200 on the table by not demanding more money to chop. Realistically, everybody probably would have given me $20 a piece.

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Playing with morons?
They take $220 each and you, not even the chip leader, get $560?

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yes, most are morons.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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3rd - 300
2nd - 500
1st - 750


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250 for 17th place when you are going to flip coins? Sounds good to me.

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Blinds 5k/10k, 17 players left, 20 got paid. $25 buy in, Chip leader had around 70k, short stack had about 15, I was sitting around 55k. Decided to chop 17 ways for $240 a piece (4th place money). Was this a good chop?

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Total number of chips in play?

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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Blinds 5k/10k, 17 players left, 20 got paid. $25 buy in, Chip leader had around 70k, short stack had about 15, I was sitting around 55k. Decided to chop 17 ways for $240 a piece (4th place money). Was this a good chop?

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Total number of chips in play?

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Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500k

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

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it's not as if this is really a strictly EV-based decision anyway.

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Exactly. EV it's an ok chop. But seriously, youre playing a low level donker. Play for fun, and to tune up your game. You'd have to play these every day for weeks or months just to get ahead of the variance caused by all the donkeys, the juice and the escalating blinds to really have an edge.

Not to mention, any chop involving 17 players is a freakin joke just on principal alone!

Re: 17 way chop - was it a good decision
 

Even if you are very risk averse (which you shouldn't be in such a small tournament), there is no reason to agree to a chop in this situation.

When you are the lone hold-out to a chop, you have an immense amount of power. It isn't that you decide whether there will be a chop or not, it's that you decide when the chop happens.

If everyone is really eager to chop, and you are risk averse, just keep playing very conservatively for a while while other people get knocked out. Basically, play it like a super-satellite. You can accede to the chop whenever your stack gets down below average, and make additional money without ever having a real risk of getting knocked out.