Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

fwiw, I blaim atheism for my last downswing as well.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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So the only thing stopping you from suicide is your religon. Sucks but maybe explains why you cling to it so desperately.

chez

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In context of what was being discussed this is a non sequitur, and you know it.

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?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Technology does not make one happy.

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Technology provides food, warmth, and shelter, which are necessary for happiness (and which, largely due to religion and its effects on politics, many people still don't have).

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nature causes both pain and pleasure. I don't see how it is easier for man to spread awful pain than to alleviate the suffering he causes.

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Then you're ignorant, or have no imagination.

I can traumatize a person within minutes such that the very best professional help will take years to repair the damage. Damage from severe enough trauma causes irreparable damage, and while evidence on torture is lacking, anecdotal evidence and extrapolation from the effects of relatively "tame" experiences indicate that severe, sustained torture can destroy the mind.

And the body? Same deal. It's easy to shatter a bone. It can be done in minutes, probably seconds if you know how. Hey vhawk, how long does it take to put back together? 1 hour? 2 hours? Ooh, maybe 2 hours and 15 minutes? And it's easy, right? And the quality of the repair is excellent, ldo.

Thankfully the vast majority of people choose to do more good than harm - if it were the other way around... I don't want to think about it.

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If an atheist is convinced that life on the whole is much more painful than pleasurable, I don't see why he would not commit suicide. It would be the reasonable thing to do.

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My life isn't more painful than pleasurable. But it was. I was actively suicidal for over a decade, and it was rough. Suicide is hard, I doubt you understand how hard it is. We really aren't built to kill ourselves, or even to consider it as an option. From your beliefs, I suppose God's twisted sense of humor prevents him from allowing such an easy escape. And oh, because of religious poison most of the world believes that committing suicide will result in eternal torture. That's something of a disincentive.

But the more important issue - we're doing better. Most people in the developed world are never raped or tortured, they never suffer from plagues, they don't see loved ones killed on a regular basis, they never starve or go hungry for months at a time. We've persevered and conquered the brutal existence that we knew in nature and especially during early civilization. Chances are that, during most of human history, if you had suggested a pain/pleasure view of utility, people would have thought you were crazy. Only the wealthy ever thought that way, it just wasn't how the world was perceived. People had to find value in life beyond pleasure, because what pleasure they had was meager.

Of course, nature still has its way with us. Though we do what we can to support happiness, all of our efforts are eventually counteracted. Disease finds us, entropy takes everything (and everyone) we value away from us, our constant needs overwhelm us and the limited means to meet those needs frustrate us, and those who try to help us often do more harm than good... And occasionally (very rarely in areas where need isn't a major concern) a bad apple deliberately makes things worse.

But it's the nature of our existence that causes the vast majority of our suffering - and it's our personal power and our compassion that allow us to overcome it despite the odds. So I'm comfortable saying that if a God is responsible for the nature of our reality, then God is evil and humans are good. Thankfully I don't believe that - any gods that exist are probably in the same boat we are.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Pretty harsh. I can only imagine what you would call people who opine after reading an 8 paragraph news article of a 76 page text.

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Hey! You're being awfully dumb. How can you criticize valen for one small post, when he has a huge posting history? Have you read all of his posts so you have a basis to talk about him?

How about this - when you read one full page of pure idiotic drivel, reading the other 75 pages is stupid. I have better things to do with my time than wade through irrelevant hateful nonsense, and I've seen more than enough of it from this pope to know what his words are worth.

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I hadn’t realized he was so well published. I was responding to his post which I assumed from the context that it was based on this thread. Had he wished the reader to know that his one sentence referenced his own history as well as the Pope’s, perhaps he should have made that clearer.

And if folk want to base their opinion of a 76 page text from an AP news article I have no problem with that. If you (and he) are basing your opinions on prior information that is fine. It does no good, though, to give such opinions as presented.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if folk want to base their opinion of a 76 page text from an AP news article I have no problem with that. If you (and he) are basing your opinions on prior information that is fine. It does no good, though, to give such opinions as presented.

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Just read that Donald Trump has hired a group of girls he calls the Trumpettes. He's such a pompous ass, about as bad as it gets.

luckyme

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hadn’t realized he was so well published. I was responding to his post which I assumed from the context that it was based on this thread. Had he wished the reader to know that his one sentence referenced his own history as well as the Pope’s, perhaps he should have made that clearer.

And if folk want to base their opinion of a 76 page text from an AP news article I have no problem with that. If you (and he) are basing your opinions on prior information that is fine. It does no good, though, to give such opinions as presented.

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You're missing my point. I was being sarcastic. You're perfectly justified in talking about valen's post, because you don't need to know his whole posting history to evaluate what he says. You can discuss each individual post on its own. And if he says something stupid or horrible, then you can call him on it, even if you aren't an expert on his 2p2 history.

Similarly, we're discussing the quotes posted in this thread and in the article. We can do so without knowing anything about the Pope. Calling him an idiot based on one blurb might be a little extreme, but we can discuss that blurb all we care to without needing to read the rest, and we can use it as a clue of the Pope's general position on atheism and atheists.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Similarly, we're discussing the quotes posted in this thread and in the article. We can do so without knowing anything about the Pope. Calling him an idiot based on one blurb might be a little extreme, but we can discuss that blurb all we care to without needing to read the rest, and we can use it as a clue of the Pope's general position on atheism and atheists.

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And you have no worries that this article wasn’t the least bit titillating? I wish my faith in God was as strong as your faith in journalists.

(Good use of sarcasm, btw. Wish I had caught it on my own.)

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

So you've given us your theory on the evil in nature (which the major religions agree with) plus a proposed solution:

"it's our personal power and our compassion that allow us to overcome it despite the odds."

Which is what religion proposes to do, although they go to God for help, whereas you summon the giant within Anthony Robbins style.

Unless you can demonstrate that you're happier than a religious theist, why on earth should they take atheism seriously?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice,"

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And as a former Nazi, he knows from whence he speaks.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Unless you can demonstrate that you're happier than a religious theist, why on earth should they take atheism seriously?

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How is that relevant? Nobody decides to be an atheist (or to be in agreement with any other spiritual/philosophical belief) because he thinks it will make him happier. People simply "become" atheists when, for whatever reason, they don't believe that any gods exist.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice,"

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And as a former Nazi, he knows from whence he speaks.

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Yea, he would've been much better off refusing to join the Nazi youth and being killed. Nice try at scoring some brownie points, but no one would believe that in that situation, at that age, you wouldn't have joined the German Boy Scouts. I'm not even interested in this thread, just bored, looking for something to read.

To the OP, the pope is an idiot, everyone knows all the worlds problems are caused by muslims, not atheists. /sarcasm.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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People simply "become" atheists when, for whatever reason, they no longer believe that any gods exist.

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hmmmmm... I've always thought we were born atheists. Oh, ok, you're taking it from the point where they've been brainwashed and conditioned and now re-become atheists. A born-again atheist?

luckyme

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

There's no such thing as an atheist. There's rational people who ask for extraordinary evidence before believing in extraordinary claims, and there's irrational people who take pride in being certain about their beliefs in extraordinary claims without the slightest shred of evidence.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

I thought this was interesting,

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From Article -
But in his second encyclical, Benedict also critically questioned modern Christianity, saying its focus on individual salvation had ignored Jesus' message that true Christian hope involves salvation for all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how he expands on this in his encyclical. Does a papal encyclical carry the weight of infallibility? The title, "Saved by Hope" is intriguing. I've heard of "Saved by Faith" and "Saved by Grace", but what would "Saved by Hope" mean? Does he break new theological ground with this? Expert catholics here should report.

PairTheBoard

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]


Unless you can demonstrate that you're happier than a religious theist, why on earth should they take atheism seriously?

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement reminds me of this quote:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

George Bernard Shaw

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People simply "become" atheists when, for whatever reason, they no longer believe that any gods exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmmmm... I've always thought we were born atheists. Oh, ok, you're taking it from the point where they've been brainwashed and conditioned and now re-become atheists. A born-again atheist?

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"Become" is in quotes because it's an imprecise tool for describing the situation; your objection is one of the ways in which it's lacking. I erred in using the phrase "no longer," because I wasn't necessarily talking about conversions. I've edited and replaced it with "don't."

That said, I don't think your preferred terminology -- "born atheists," along with, I'm sure, 'atheism is not a belief' -- is the necessarily correct one. Of course I see what you're saying, but there are other ways of expressing that information that don't convey a semantic advantage to your position. Alternate phrasings will surely have their own drawbacks, but I'm skeptical about turns of phrase which, IMO, cloud discussion about concepts and/or imperceptibly change the discussion into one about the tools used to express those concepts.

And, heh, predictably, I'm not a fan of the "brainwashed" usage, for similar reasons. I know what you mean by it and I (mostly) share your concerns. However, we already understand the process to which you're applying that label, so wouldn't it be preferable to exaplain what you find objectionable about that process? In my experience, using that kind of label leads to debates along the lines of:

"See, it fits this definition from dictionary.com."
"Nuh-uh."

I think it's better to use more neutral terminology, even if it seems to you too sympathetic to the other side of the debate, so that you don't get stuck arguing about the symbols rather than the concepts.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
hether faith, hope, and charity are fittingly reckoned as theological virtues?

Objection 1: It would seem that faith, hope, and charity are not fittingly reckoned as three theological virtues. For the theological virtues are in relation to Divine happiness, what the natural inclination is in relation to the connatural end. Now among the virtues directed to the connatural end there is but one natural virtue, viz. the understanding of principles. Therefore there should be but one theological virtue.

Objection 2: Further, the theological virtues are more perfect than the intellectual and moral virtues. Now faith is not reckoned among the intellectual virtues, but is something less than a virtue, since it is imperfect knowledge. Likewise hope is not reckoned among the moral virtues, but is something less than a virtue, since it is a passion. Much less therefore should they be reckoned as theological virtues.

Objection 3: Further, the theological virtues direct man's soul to God. Now man's soul cannot be directed to God, save through the intellective part, wherein are the intellect and will. Therefore there should be only two theological virtues, one perfecting the intellect, the other, the will.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (1 Cor. 13:13): "Now there remain faith, hope, charity, these three."

I answer that, As stated above (A[1]), the theological virtues direct man to supernatural happiness in the same way as by the natural inclination man is directed to his connatural end. Now the latter happens in respect of two things. First, in respect of the reason or intellect, in so far as it contains the first universal principles which are known to us by the natural light of the intellect, and which are reason's starting-point, both in speculative and in practical matters. Secondly, through the rectitude of the will which tends naturally to good as defined by reason.

But these two fall short of the order of supernatural happiness, according to 1 Cor. 2:9: "The eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love Him." Consequently in respect of both the above things man needed to receive in addition something supernatural to direct him to a supernatural end. First, as regards the intellect, man receives certain supernatural principles, which are held by means of a Divine light: these are the articles of faith, about which is faith. Secondly, the will is directed to this end, both as to that end as something attainable---and this pertains to hope---and as to a certain spiritual union, whereby the will is, so to speak, transformed into that end---and this belongs to charity. For the appetite of a thing is moved and tends towards its connatural end naturally; and this movement is due to a certain conformity of the thing with its end.

Reply to Objection 1: The intellect requires intelligible species whereby to understand: consequently there is need of a natural habit in addition to the power. But the very nature of the will suffices for it to be directed naturally to the end, both as to the intention of the end and as to its conformity with the end. But the nature of the power is insufficient in either of these respects, for the will to be directed to things that are above its nature. Consequently there was need for an additional supernatural habit in both respects.

Reply to Objection 2: Faith and hope imply a certain imperfection: since faith is of things unseen, and hope, of things not possessed. Hence faith and hope, in things that are subject to human power, fall short of the notion of virtue. But faith and hope in things which are above the capacity of human nature surpass all virtue that is in proportion to man, according to 1 Cor. 1:25: "The weakness of God is stronger than men."

Reply to Objection 3: Two things pertain to the appetite, viz. movement to the end, and conformity with the end by means of love. Hence there must needs be two theological virtues in the human appetite, namely, hope and charity.

« Prev Article. 3 - Whether faith, hope, and charity are… Next »

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Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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From a long list of theist poster comments on here, it's also what keeps them from being sociopaths.

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Anyone who needs religion to make them moral is a sociopath.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was interesting,

[ QUOTE ]

From Article -

But in his second encyclical, Benedict also critically questioned modern Christianity, saying its focus on individual salvation had ignored Jesus' message that true Christian hope involves salvation for all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how he expands on this in his encyclical. Does a papal encyclical carry the weight of infallibility? The title, "Saved by Hope" is intriguing. I've heard of "Saved by Faith" and "Saved by Grace", but what would "Saved by Hope" mean? Does he break new theological ground with this? Expert catholics here should report.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]
No, this encyclical carries no infallibility. I am interested in reading the entire text (well most of it, not sure if I’ll get through all 76 pages). Sounds like a good letter to the people.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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How about this - when you read one full page of pure idiotic drivel

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Madnak,

When I read the ABC article I thought to myself the Pope can't be this stupid it must be the reporting. So I read what other news sources had to say. It turns out I was right. The ABC article was pure drivel. The OPs comments about it make sense if you've only read that ABC article. However, now after reading actual excerpts from the encycical the OPs original comments and the ABC article itself look foolish. I'm not trying to slam the OP as its obvious he was misled by horrible reporting by ABC.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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[ QUOTE ]


Unless you can demonstrate that you're happier than a religious theist, why on earth should they take atheism seriously?

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement reminds me of this quote:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

George Bernard Shaw

[/ QUOTE ]

Not surprising, coming from the man who recommended Josef Stalin for the Nobel Peace Prize.

If happiness is not a person's main goal, then I don't think they're human.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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From a long list of theist poster comments on here, it's also what keeps them from being sociopaths.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who needs religion to make them moral is a sociopath.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who subjugates themselves to a society's morals rather than following their own will is a slave.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The same thing that makes us recognize Stalin and Mao as evil, is what is so evil about religion. It is not that they are atheists. It's that they demand your heart and your mind. They wish to have total control over every aspect of our lives private and personal. They want to have control over our sons and daughters. Our labor and our pleasure. We can give nothing short of obedience to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to make valid points against the Pope's encycical you have show that the Pope was wrong when he made the statement "The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism". If you do not make an argument against that statement it appears you agree with that statement and just have a double standard.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, "within the confines of nature." Didn't God set up those confines? So why do "the confines of nature" actually result in incredible suffering (nature probably causes more suffering than man, or has historically)? Further, why do the confines of nature allow man great latitude in spreading awful pain, but limit his power to alleviate suffering?


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I don't understand this attitude that living things are somehow entitled to be free of suffering. That an injustince was done in that we were created incomplete. I have never felt incomplete.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

Peter,

So, did you decide to be Christian because you think you'll be happiest that way? And if you thought you'd be happier as a Hindu, would you convert?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to make valid points against the Pope's encycical you have show that the Pope was wrong when he made the statement "The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism". If you do not make an argument against that statement it appears you agree with that statement and just have a double standard.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a law against forced opt-out in this state so I don't follow your logic. Iow, it's assumed you don't agree with stuff you haven't agreed to.

luckyme

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Peter,

So, did you decide to be Christian because you think you'll be happiest that way? And if you thought you'd be happier as a Hindu, would you convert?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if I was convinced that a Hindu could be happier than a Christian after all was said and done, I would naturally want to be a Hindu.

But I am a Christian because of the grace of faith. Without that grace, I could not be absolutely sure of an afterlife of happiness.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you've given us your theory on the evil in nature (which the major religions agree with)

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Uh, the major religions believe that God created nature. Therefore, if this is true, then the major religions believe that God created evil. Thus, evil is God's choice, not man's choice. Which refutes the attempts at theodicy earlier in the thread. If I'm not mistaken, you don't believe God is omnibenevolent, or even particularly benevolent at all. So it might not concern you that God created evil, or that God made reality evil.

But I'd argue that the problem of evil is relevant for any compassionate person, and if evil was God's choice, then the standard responses to the problem are refuted. It also means that God (if God exists) cannot be omnix3.

We could get into questions about the so-called "sinful nature" of man, etc etc, but Benedict himself sometimes waves away the problem of evil with the fallacious "oh well that's man's problem, not God's" [censored].

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Which is what religion proposes to do, although they go to God for help, whereas you summon the giant within Anthony Robbins style.

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Of course, of course. The imaginary man-in-the-clouds has a proven track record, while human ingenuity has never gotten us anywhere.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I read the ABC article I thought to myself the Pope can't be this stupid it must be the reporting. So I read what other news sources had to say. It turns out I was right. The ABC article was pure drivel. The OPs comments about it make sense if you've only read that ABC article. However, now after reading actual excerpts from the encycical the OPs original comments and the ABC article itself look foolish. I'm not trying to slam the OP as its obvious he was misled by horrible reporting by ABC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I responded to the quote you posted, it was no better than what the article said (though I agree some of the article was dishonest).

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this attitude that living things are somehow entitled to be free of suffering. That an injustince was done in that we were created incomplete. I have never felt incomplete.

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It's sad that you don't understand the attitude, but it's irrelevant. We aren't talking about entitlement.

God had two choices - a world of great suffering or a world of less suffering. As God is omnipotent, the level of suffering is independent of other considerations (for an omnipotent being, one variable is not dependent on another variable unless he wants it to be). Therefore, by choosing the world of great suffering (a world where suffering tends to increase unless systematic effort is applied against it), God established that greater suffering is inherently desirable to lesser suffering. Therefore God is evil.

This is the "short version" of the argument, of course.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, if I was convinced that a Hindu could be happier than a Christian after all was said and done, I would naturally want to be a Hindu.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but would you actually be a Hindu?

I live in New York City. I think I'd be happier if I believed that New York had the greatest weather in the world. For that reason, I naturally want to believe that we do have the greatest weather. But I don't believe it, because belief doesn't work that way.

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But I am a Christian because of the grace of faith. Without that grace, I could not be absolutely sure of an afterlife of happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that because of your faith you are certain of an afterlife of happiness if you remain Christian, hence the EV for you is overwhelmingly in favor being a Christian, and that's why you choose Christianity?

If so, that's fine by me, but it's kind of a wierd spiritual hedonism, don't you think?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Peter,

So, did you decide to be Christian because you think you'll be happiest that way? And if you thought you'd be happier as a Hindu, would you convert?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if I was convinced that a Hindu could be happier than a Christian after all was said and done, I would naturally want to be a Hindu.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be a lot happier sitting around stoned out of your mind. Go for it. Or maybe based on your posts, you already are. For your sake I hope so.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The same thing that makes us recognize Stalin and Mao as evil, is what is so evil about religion. It is not that they are atheists. It's that they demand your heart and your mind. They wish to have total control over every aspect of our lives private and personal. They want to have control over our sons and daughters. Our labor and our pleasure. We can give nothing short of obedience to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to make valid points against the Pope's encycical you have show that the Pope was wrong when he made the statement "The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism". If you do not make an argument against that statement it appears you agree with that statement and just have a double standard.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]What double standard? If you mean that the type of morality that religions provides is evil then I agree with the Pope. Removing some insidious "morality", that is religion, could be considered a type of moralism. If you mean that atheism is some positive assertion on morality then no, I disagree with the pope. There is no moral system that atheism suggests.

The claim the Pope is making has a lot more wrong with it then just the statement that atheism is a type of morality. The problem is he is blaming atheism for the great totalitarian regimes. I'm correcting him, and everyone else that somehow thinks atheism is the deciding factor in what made those cruel regimes bad.

It's not a double standard. Totalitarian states are de facto theocracies. They are all evil, and commit all sort of cruel acts. It's the religious that have a double standard here. Those states were bad because of their nature, the same nature that religion wants to impose.

The worst part about this argument is it wreaks of sure religion has committed all sorts of atrocities, but atheism is the cause of far worse ones. Please to be explaining what made those regimes "bad". If you say anything other then atheism, have a pow wow with the pope and you two can sort this out.

And if you thinks it's atheism. Fine, we can count up the crusades, the suicide bombers of Islam and Japan. The torture of religious indoctrination has on some youth. The babies that die from botched circumcision. The dulled pleasure that results from circumcision or it's counter procedure or removing the clitoris. Aids in Africa caused by the edict that condoms are immoral. The oppression of women, the encouragement of slavery.............. And you might, might be able to say that religion is one step above pond scum.

Enjoy the pyrrhic victory.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the only thing stopping you from suicide is your religon. Sucks but maybe explains why you cling to it so desperately.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

From a long list of theist poster comments on here, it's also what keeps them from being sociopaths. Perhaps a psych test of some sort should be administered at puberty and the morbid states of mind get you admitted to a seminary for a year of therapeutic indoctrination.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh they say these things but it's just evidence of dulled imagination. They do fine after the cold water hitting their face dried a few minutes later. Most of them anyway.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

Hi Luckyme,

I was just trying to point out that he OP hasn't attacked anything the Pope actually said. On the contrary, the OP seems to agree with the Pope that a "moralism" can produce evil.

Here's what the Pope basically said

Atheism of the 19th and 20th century is a "moralism"
He outlined why it is a "moralism"
He gave reasons why it arose and became accepted.
He stated it has "led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice".
He made an argument why athiesm would lead to such to such cruelty and injustice - more so than a religious moralism.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you mean that atheism is some positive assertion on morality then no, I disagree with the pope.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you do not agree that God should be contested for morality sake? I hear that all the time from atheist. They wish to convince people to be atheist for that very reason - to end the cruelty the belief in God and religion create. I hear that sentiment coming from you. Have I just been misunderstanding you because it seems to me that sentiment is a positive assertion on morality.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Peter,

So, did you decide to be Christian because you think you'll be happiest that way? And if you thought you'd be happier as a Hindu, would you convert?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if I was convinced that a Hindu could be happier than a Christian after all was said and done, I would naturally want to be a Hindu.

But I am a Christian because of the grace of faith. Without that grace, I could not be absolutely sure of an afterlife of happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to make the words "grace" and "delusion" interchangeable!