50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

Villain in hand is 20/14/3.4 over 700 hands

I've probably been playing a 25/12/3 kind of game, as that's about what I've been running at 50NL recently.

Obviously this is an extraction question, but it's a problem I run into sometimes- I have a monster, but I'm OOP and villain is forcing me to define my hand. Villain is probably far more worried about me having AA than 44, but the net effect is the same. His hand is pretty face up, I think, but that doesn't make my job any easier. I feel like if I raise then I blow him out of the water unless he slow played KK+ PF, and if I call and check he might check behind for pot control on the turn (because my call looks very strong on this board), and if he gets to see two free cards then a Broadway card might roll off and kill any action I might get by slowplaying. Third option is to call and donk the turn, which allows me to make a smaller sized bet than a re-raise would be now and still set up a PSB for the river, though I doubt he'll call both streets.

The main crux of this question is that I don't think villain is strong enough to stack off here, so how do I get maximum value from my hand?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $50.55
Hero: $53.50
MP1: $29.55
MP2: $62.05
CO: $56.05
Button: $46.10
SB: $43.05
BB: $100.10

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, 2 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($3.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $7</font>, Hero ????

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

The basis of your problem seems to be this... the villain probably doesn't have a strong enough hand to give you that much more action here most of the time. There isn't much you can do about that... Unless he is raising a flush draw, you really don't want to give him any cards to 'catch up' because if he does (assuming he has like 66-JJ here) you are crushed. Whenever I'm in this situation I think about strong hands they will be willing to commit with (JJ+, any 8, sd/fd) and what is the best way to go about playing for stacks in that situation. Slowplaying doesn't make much sense to me, try and get him to commit now, raise to somewhere in the vicinity of $17-$20 and shove any turn that isn't an 8.

You run 25/12/3 and you are worried about him putting you on aces here? You have the perfect image to play your monsters ultra aggro.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whenever I'm in this situation I think about strong hands they will be willing to commit with (JJ+, any 8, sd/fd) and what is the best way to go about playing for stacks in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly, however I think I've come to a different conclusion. There are some hands in his range that we'll get it in with no matter what happens. If he has an 8 then stacks are going in. If he has an overpair strong enough to stack off with (KK/AA and maybe QQ), then stacks are going in short of an overcard coming.

The part of his range I am most concerned about is the hands he wont be itching to get me all in with- the lower pairs. They are the only ones that really matter (since the other hands play themselves no matter what I do) so that's what I should play to extract value from. I don't think any of those hands can call a re-raise here, but if I call it's hard to put me on a hand a small pair can beat.

[ QUOTE ]
raise to somewhere in the vicinity of $17-$20 and shove any turn that isn't an 8.

[/ QUOTE ]The thing is, I'd rather build the pot slowly. If he's got a fast hand, we'll get it in on the turn, but I'd prefer to slowly turn up the heat to get him to commit too much with a weaker hand.

Very often (at this level at least) a slow build where you bet on all streets and leave villain with a less than PSB on the river gets them to commit with all sorts of weak hands. They just don't realize what's going on until it's too late. I'd actually have preferred he didn't raise, as then I could keep building gradually rather than being forced to define my hand.

[ QUOTE ]
You run 25/12/3 and you are worried about him putting you on aces here?

[/ QUOTE ]Those aren't THAT aggressive of stats. Plus, who pays attention at 50NL?


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for raising and betting with strong hands. You don't see me slowplaying my monsters very often. And I don't want to slowplay here, really, I just want to figure out a way to maximize against his range. I have this problem playing monsters OOP, and this is just one example.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

As above, I would definitely reraise to 18 and hope villain has an 8 and called with suited connectors on the CO or has a good flush draw with overs. If you don't the action is gonna be slowed down alot on the turn especially with you betting out again. If the diamond hits the board, he might even try to bluff you on the river.
I don't like calling as you are OOP and villain gets more info of you strength.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely reraise to 18 and hope villain has an 8

[/ QUOTE ]You realize that if villian has an 8, it doesn't matter what I do here, right? If I raise he'll push (or call and call my turn push), and if I call and check he'll bet and call my c/r, and if I call and donk him then he'll either shove or call my all in on the river. This is also probably true of slow played AA or KK, and maybe QQ.

I don't want to make a play that will only work if he has stack off hand, because that situation takes care of itself.

If he has some kind of a draw (which I think is unlikely) then I'm happy to let him draw at it in hopes that he gets there (though I'd like to charge him along the way, if possible).

I think the majority of his range is weak over pairs, and I don't think the re-raising here maximizes against that range.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

No doubt if he has an 8 the money is going in anyway. I'm more thinking if he has jacks, I want to commit him now before a scare card rolls off. I'd advocate min-raising before I'd say go ahead and flat call. You are out of position then and aren't going to be able to extract as well.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

I agree with jeff he hit the 2nd nuts on the flop and is almost guaranteed the best hand. I would reraise light on this perhaps only to $20 or max $22...and like jeff said try to gain some more value off the turn regardless of what card hits.

If villain hits higher boat on turn or river well thats just poker, but I agree I would try to extract as much value as possible on flop and turn so I could push on river...

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

I like to push back here. As said, if he has an 8, the money's going in regardless. If you have him on a weak overpair I think the value of a reraise here would be greater than the call/donk line. Too many scary action-killing cards can come on the turn. It's probably slightly more profitable to hope your opponent has JJ and is too eager to stack off with it.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

I'd be surprised if you get too much more money out of a TT/99 type of hand here, regardless of what you do or what cards fall.

Maybe one more bet, likely on the river if turn is checked through--and as has been said, lost of cards to stop a TT/99 from adding $$$ to the pot can easily fall.

Generally with an underfull, I don't try to mess around getting another small bet from a weak one pair hand here very often. I prefer to make sure that as much money goes in on the flop against 8x/AA/etc as possible when I'm ahead.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

I would minraise here and push turn.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

Jeff,

Here are my thoughts. You want to sell your hand as AK, if he has a small pair. How would AK play in this position. You would Cbet on the flop (I think you should of cbet a bit more than you did ) and he is the small pair thinking you are fos and he raises you. The "donkey" that you are with AK, call his bet, 3 bet and you cant sell AK.

You need to then check the turn. He may or may not bet out, again if he bets out, call/raise he may have the 8. If he checks, then put in an overbet on the turn to simulate the bluff. If thats your read then this is how I would play it.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

Ok, so everyone seems to think that raising is the correct play here. The reason being that I probably won't get much more action unless villain has a really big hand- which means a slowplayed hand PF, and 8, or an overvalued JJ kind of a hand, so might as well just keep building.

I think the vast majority of villains range is smallish pairs, though the point is well made that we probably won't be getting much value from them no matter what we do.

Given all that, it looks like villain has likely put his last dime in the pot unless he has a monster, and there aren't many monsters for him to have. So, if we change our hand to AK, does this mean that a 3bet would be profitable? It seems like it would be, and if he gets frisky with JJ we still have some equity in the pot.

How standard should a 3bet be here with AK? And if it's a play that should be used often, does villain's re-raise here indicate more weakness than strength (i.e. he's looking for info so we should disappoint him with bad information)?

Just some thoughts. I hate playing OOP [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is what I get for raising 44 in EP. (not that I'm complaining too much [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so everyone seems to think that raising is the correct play here. The reason being that I probably won't get much more action unless villain has a really big hand- which means a slowplayed hand PF, and 8, or an overvalued JJ kind of a hand, so might as well just keep building.

I think the vast majority of villains range is smallish pairs, though the point is well made that we probably won't be getting much value from them no matter what we do.

Given all that, it looks like villain has likely put his last dime in the pot unless he has a monster, and there aren't many monsters for him to have. So, if we change our hand to AK, does this mean that a 3bet would be profitable? It seems like it would be, and if he gets frisky with JJ we still have some equity in the pot.

How standard should a 3bet be here with AK? And if it's a play that should be used often, does villain's re-raise here indicate more weakness than strength (i.e. he's looking for info so we should disappoint him with bad information)?

Just some thoughts. I hate playing OOP [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is what I get for raising 44 in EP. (not that I'm complaining too much [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head here. On paired low flops a raise is very often a mid pair. 3bet them religiously with big hands (JJ+) and air. They aren't going to have a good hand enough to call you and once they get pissed off and call you still have a big hand some of the time and other times you spike an out.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

I agree that reraising the flop seems like the better play, but is the alternative that much worse? I don't think that occasionally calling and then checking the turn is out of the question because as pointed out an 8 is going to get the money in at some point anyway, and by calling and checking the turn, you at least give villain a chance to put in more money with a hand that might've folded to your flop reraise. More of a question than an observation.

Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House
 

I've kind of come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter what we do. Most plays are going to end up at the same place.

As it happens, I called and then donked the turn for a little over half the pot. He called, which set up a nice PSB for the river, which he folded to. I probably made a little bit more than re-raising the flop, but who knows- he might have called out of spite and gotten stacked. Hard to tell.

I think this hand may help me deal with re-raises better when c-betting, but time will tell.

On thing for sure- I make a lot more with this hand if I'm in position.