i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

You are the under the gun player (6-handed)!!! You open raise. Oh no, you are 3-bet by the small blind!

You call. Flop T65r, he bets. Choose your own adventure and crap. I personally raise the flop for information but showdown anyway.


Board: Tc 6d 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.956% 45.96% 00.00% 256602 0.00 { 77 }
Hand 1: 54.044% 54.04% 00.00% 301758 0.00 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

edit: I removed KQo from Hand 1's range because NinaWilliams questioned it and it makes my point stronger.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

This has something to do with Joe Tall, methinks?

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

what's KQo doing in there?

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

Yes, but I conveniently changed the hand in my favor. I made UTG actually UTG instead of HJ, so now SB's range is even more constricted.

[ QUOTE ]
what's KQo doing in there?

[/ QUOTE ]
Edited original post.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

77-99 on T65 is the new QQ on 995.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

I usually don't raise here, for a few reasons. One, TAGs these days are bad and will just barrel away with AQ on all streets (What is ATs doing in his range? most weak TAGs coldcall that imo). Two, obviously my hand can't exactly stand a ton of heat - having to pick if this is the type of TAG you can raise/fold against or the type you can call down against can blow. Three, my hand is kinda obvious as some sort of ten or a weakish pair, all of which are about the same value vs. his range.

Edit: Obviously something like QTs has a lot more equity when behind.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
77-99 on T65 is the new QQ on 995.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHA

Awesome!

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
77-99 on T65 is the new QQ on 995.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHA

Awesome!

[/ QUOTE ]

2nd gem of this young thread imo along with

[ QUOTE ]
I personally raise the flop for information but showdown anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

miles its time to take a break from the 5k hands or so of strenuous grinding you have been doing, and go get your drink on.

relating to OP, I would say I usually raise the flop, obviously this could change depending on villain. Raising and calling both are reasonable on this board, but with a hand like 77 I tend to not take a WA/WB line because if I'm ahead usually villains have 6+ outs on me.

If I get 3-bet on the flop I decide whether or not to SD based on villain and turn/river cards. But obviously if villain isn't known to spew if I raise flop and get 3-bet I'm going for be folding turn/river a decent portion of the time.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

546 games 0.001 secs 546,000 games/sec

Board: Tc Td 6h 5s 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.143% 57.14% 00.00% 312 0.00 { 77 }
Hand 1: 42.857% 42.86% 00.00% 234 0.00 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

724,680 games 0.005 secs 144,936,000 games/sec

Board: Tc 6d 5h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.315% 65.52% 00.79% 474811 5760.00 { ATo }
Hand 1: 33.685% 32.89% 00.79% 238349 5760.00 { 77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

564,300 games 0.004 secs 141,075,000 games/sec

Board: Tc 6d 5h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.916% 54.39% 00.53% 306921 2970.00 { 99 }
Hand 1: 45.084% 44.56% 00.53% 251439 2970.00 { 77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

552 games 0.005 secs 110,400 games/sec

Board: Tc 6d 5h 3d Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.109% 69.57% 00.54% 384 3.00 { 99 }
Hand 1: 29.891% 29.35% 00.54% 162 3.00 { 77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

546 games 0.001 secs 546,000 games/sec

Board: Tc Td 6h 5s 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.143% 57.14% 00.00% 312 0.00 { 77 }
Hand 1: 42.857% 42.86% 00.00% 234 0.00 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow you completely pozzed yourself right now.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

I edited post

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

You know what my issue is with that post, and editing in more pokerstoves isn't helping.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

I assume its because you think people dont bet/call A hi...?

Ill post my thoughts on your thread:

I call down, and wait for favorible cards (ones that pick me up gutshot/OESD) to raise, or a blocking card that wont change my equity, but will allow me to raise and not fear a re-raise.. IE the top pair pairing.

May be too thin with 77 though... 99 is better to do that with.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

You're assuming AJo+ and KQs bet every time and call a raise every time. AJo+ doesn't always bet, AJo+ doesn't always call a raise, and KQs basically never calls a raise.

The one thing I do like about that post is how you added 77 into the preflop 3-bettor's range to make your equities higher. That is straight out of my upcoming book called "Swaying The Masses For Advanced Posters."

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

rofl... I merely forgot to add 77 in the initial raising range... I thought its a definite 3-bet?

but yeah, raising 77 on the river is defintily too thin... 99 on the other hand...

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

I don't really understand the OP. I don't see what my hand is unless it's Eggs and Ham. Am I supposed to decide what I'd do with every hand in my range? (BTW, I think this would make an awesome trend in poker discussion. Forget individual hands, let's decide how to play our ranges.)

Am I suppose to decide what I'd do with this range? { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

Am I clarivoyant, which allows me to know my opponent has 77?

I missed the boat here, but I must thank this thread for bringing out puzzles to remind me of the QQ on 995 debacle. I lol'ed.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

haha miles, you effed this post up. Villain was in HJ in the JoeTall thread and JoeTall was supposed to have LAG stats (according to DD).

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

134,640 games 0.006 secs 22,440,000 games/sec

Board: Tc 6d 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.244% 45.87% 00.38% 61753 510.00 { 55+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 53.756% 53.38% 00.38% 71867 510.00 { 9d9h }


---

134,640 games 0.010 secs 13,464,000 games/sec

Board: Tc 6d 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.569% 49.18% 00.39% 66215 525.00 { 55+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 50.431% 50.04% 00.39% 67375 525.00 { 8d8h }


---

136,620 games 0.004 secs 34,155,000 games/sec

Board: Tc 6d 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.241% 51.88% 00.36% 70876 495.00 { 55+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 47.759% 47.40% 00.36% 64754 495.00 { 7d7h }


Not sure why I included those PStoves and what point I am making (if any), but I just wanted to take some of the wind out of Miles' sails (or however the f that saying goes).

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

Quoting myself from earlier:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but I conveniently changed the hand in my favor. I made UTG actually UTG instead of HJ, so now SB's range is even more constricted.

[/ QUOTE ]

This will also be in STMFAP.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)

[/ QUOTE ]
?

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
77-99 on T65 is the new QQ on 995.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHA

Awesome!

[/ QUOTE ]


this made me smile.

it also makes me smile that ilp is awesome and you don't listen to him.

if you raise the flop here, and get 3bet, aren't you pretty much forcing yourself to fold the turn UI?

I just call down, baring an A, but you probably all knew that anyway.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

taking me too long to figure out what stmfap means: _ _ _ for advanced players?

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
it also makes me smile that ilp is awesome and you don't listen to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do. But as opposed to what ILP thinks he is not always right... The 995 thread is an example of this IMO. I know I have Miles with me on that one [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I think Stellarwind nailed it with his reply in JT's thread. Something might work better for me than for you and the other way around because of different styles

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)

[/ QUOTE ]
?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just taking the piss.

STM = Swaying The Masses

It's a book I'm writing regarding message board arguments.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it also makes me smile that ilp is awesome and you don't listen to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do. But as opposed to what ILP thinks he is not always right... The 995 thread is an example of this IMO. I know I have Miles with me on that one [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I think Stellarwind nailed it with his reply in JT's thread. Something might work better for me than for you and the other way around because of different styles

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha! I never said that I was always right. I actually remember the last time I was wrong....It was a Pokerbob thread. I think it was a SB vs BB hand where Pokerbob was the SB and ggbman(I forgot how to spell his name) was the BB. I believe PokerBob had K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and open raised. ggbman 3bet and Pokerbob called. The flop came out something like J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Pokerbob check/called and the turn was a A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I advocated a turn check/raise line and this was really bad advice against a player as strong as ggbman. The worst part is, the poster who pointed this out to me was Natethegreat. As many of you know, Nate is one of the best poker players to ever post on 2+2 and me and him have had our fair share of tussles over the last few years and pretty much all of them have ended in stalemates where we both had to "agree to disagree". But in Pokerbob's hand, Nate was clearly right, and I was clearly wrong and that sucked. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

About the actuall 995 thread, in case anyone still cares, I am still convinced I'm right in that thread but I dont wanna get sucked into that black hole again. I killed most of my weekend in that thread. I will just say this when Im HU against an unknown and he donks and I have a one pair type hand, I treat this as a very special situation in limit holdem and although the lines I advocate in these spots are very unconventional to most 2+2ers, Im convinced my lines will make/save more money than other more conventional lines.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

why do you guys want to raise when you pick up a gutshot?

Board: Tc 6d 5h 3c
Dead:

Hand 0: 52.901% { 77 }
Hand 1: 47.099% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

I don't think we ever fold out a better hand (omg now hero can be semibluffing a turned straight draw!) and getting 3bet would really suck

even picking up an OESD only raises our EQ to ~56.5%

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I missed the boat here, but I must thank this thread for bringing out puzzles to remind me of the QQ on 995 debacle. I lol'ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7092566

Still makes me smile. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I missed the boat here, but I must thank this thread for bringing out puzzles to remind me of the QQ on 995 debacle. I lol'ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7092566

Still makes me smile. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


i had forgotten about the SoaP thread from last summer. That one from waffle is so good. for all of our arguments, 2+2 has some very intelligent, and very creative ppl, and I'm proud to be a member.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
haha miles, you effed this post up. Villain was in HJ in the JoeTall thread and JoeTall was supposed to have LAG stats (according to DD).

[/ QUOTE ]

My last 10k hands...

31.49/23.06/2.8

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

Your AF is 3 times mine (lol).

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your AF is 3 times mine (lol).

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop AF: 3.43

Is that high, meow chow, King Friday?

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
why do you guys want to raise when you pick up a gutshot?

Board: Tc 6d 5h 3c
Dead:

Hand 0: 52.901% { 77 }
Hand 1: 47.099% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

I don't think we ever fold out a better hand (omg now hero can be semibluffing a turned straight draw!) and getting 3bet would really suck

even picking up an OESD only raises our EQ to ~56.5%

[/ QUOTE ]

you have the ranges wrong dude (miles changed it from 5-handed to 6-handed and decided that, after he messed up and realized he was wrong, he was gonna leave the mistake and try to confuse the subject into obliteration):

Board: Tc 6d 5h 3c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.224% 44.86% 00.36% 2724 22.00 { 55+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 54.776% 54.41% 00.36% 3304 22.00 { 7d7h }


And imo, raising here is good precisely because getting 3-bet isn't that big of a deal. If we had 99 it would be annoying cuz we give up on our outs in 9 bb pot and also small chance we were ahead.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

you really think i included "6-handed" in the OP in parentheses not realizing that the hand Joe Tall posted was actually 5-handed, and then in my second post in the thread i just decided to act like my "error" was on porpoise?

i did it for a reason - because i thought all of you arguing about 77-99 on this board wouldn't care whether we were UTG or HJ and this way i could get around you making the stupid argument that "SB's range is too tight." simple really.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

miles,
sorry dude, i was just trying to have a little fun with you. won't happen again, i swear.

Anyway, what exactly is the point you are trying to make here? Is it that you should call with 99? Cuz SB's range is pretty important when making that decision imo.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I missed the boat here, but I must thank this thread for bringing out puzzles to remind me of the QQ on 995 debacle. I lol'ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7092566

Still makes me smile. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


i had forgotten about the SoaP thread from last summer. That one from waffle is so good. for all of our arguments, 2+2 has some very intelligent, and very creative ppl, and I'm proud to be a member.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's some of my favorite quotes from that thread:

"ILP,You usually post some good advice, but the pedantic tone to your posts really needs to go." Hobbs to me.

"my point is irrefutable, so dont waste your time arguing with me." Me to everybody. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

"oh, and please stop acting like such a tool in your posts." Jba to me.

"Nice post miles, this [censored] is inspiring." –Miles to himself. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

"This is one of my favorite puzzles." the infamous ILOVEPUZZLES995 referring to the 995 hand.

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
miles,
sorry dude, i was just trying to have a little fun with you. won't happen again, i swear.

Anyway, what exactly is the point you are trying to make here? Is it that you should call with 99? Cuz SB's range is pretty important when making that decision imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
your "miles messed up" post sounded serious and i got sad. basically my point is that people raise without equity when the only justification for doing so would be narrowing the other guy's range enough (information) to make a timely laydown with a pair. however, no one folds after raising. that's why i said "i personally raise the flop for information but showdown anyway."

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

good times...

Re: i just ate ham and eggs (eggs and ham for those in UK)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I missed the boat here, but I must thank this thread for bringing out puzzles to remind me of the QQ on 995 debacle. I lol'ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7092566

Still makes me smile. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


i had forgotten about the SoaP thread from last summer. That one from waffle is so good. for all of our arguments, 2+2 has some very intelligent, and very creative ppl, and I'm proud to be a member.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's some of my favorite quotes from that thread:


[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree again. "Instadonk 995 flops checkbox" ftw.