Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

I had J8s in the SB, I open-completed, and the BB raised. I called down unimproved, and won.

The BB was overly aggressive, and would almost always bet if I checked to him (and would raise if I just completed the SB). Bluffing did not seem to be a profitable option.

What's the most favorable board for calling on the river with J8 unimproved, where both cards play? Where only the jack plays? What are some borderline situations, assuming I'm getting 6:1 on the river? What's the worst possible board?

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

well if the board is 34569 you lose to any but T8

best would probably be something like 22223.

edit: added in best.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

Actually you probably want something like AAKQx...lessens the probability that he has a high card, fewer combos out there that beat you.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

Probably no 'boards' are good, I would say the only time is against players who refuse to fold where you have a +EV to call down with basically any face card because he will raise with 23s and bet it down.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

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Actually you probably want something like AAKQx...lessens the probability that he has a high card, fewer combos out there that beat you.

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Good point. Since you can't catch up when behind having fewer behind options available could be the best way to go. I was thinking in terms of keeping hands that you beat from catching up to you. Your way does both.

Some answers
 

I made the call because I had heard people talking about Poki calling down with jack-high, and I studied this ahead of time. I think many experienced poker players don't have much intuition about how strong jack-high is. Sometimes it is decent. Sometimes it is hopeless. <a href="www.pokerstove.com" target="_blank">PokerStove</a> is good for this type of question.

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What's the most favorable board for calling on the river with J8 unimproved, where both cards play? Where only the jack plays?

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J8 unimproved can actually be a favorite over a random hand when only the jack plays. J8 has an equity of 0.617 against a random hand when the board is AAKKx, with no flush possible.

When both cards play, boards like AAK64 and AKQ64 both give J8 an equity of 0.368, enough to call when getting 2:1 odds.

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What's the worst possible board?

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96543, with 4 of a suit, gives J8 0.008 equity. Out of 990 hands, J8 only ties 4 other J8 combinations and beats 6 T8 combinations. J8 can't call getting 100:1 odds.

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What are some borderline situations, assuming I'm getting 6:1 on the river?

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I'll leave that for others to work on.

In the actual situation, the board was AKxxx, and J8 had an equity of about 0.26, which would allow me to call with 3:1 odds against a random hand.

Re: Some answers
 

If you call down with J8 unimproved and you win, you got lucky (unless of course you knew the player had something lower than that).

-HoldemPokerPlyr

Re: Some answers
 

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If you call down with J8 unimproved and you win, you got lucky (unless of course you knew the player had something lower than that).


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Did you think anyone did not know I needed some luck to win? I'm lucky every time I win a pot, and so are you whether you care to admit it or not.

The point is that J8 unimproved is much stronger on some boards than on other boards. I recognized a situation in which calling on the river with J8 unimproved was a good gamble.

Re: Some answers
 

c'mon tell the truth. you called him with Jack high because you thought he was disrespecting the game.

Re: Some answers
 

YOU CALLED HIM WITH JACK HIGH!

JACK

HIGH !!

haha.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

yeah i'd call with QQQQA onb oard too with J high

Re: Some answers
 

[ QUOTE ]
YOU CALLED HIM WITH JACK HIGH!

JACK

HIGH !!

haha.

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Hahaha, that's a good one. I remember that.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

Re: Some answers
 

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J8 unimproved can actually be a favorite over a random hand when only the jack plays. J8 has an equity of 0.617 against a random hand when the board is AAKKx, with no flush possible.

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J8 does slightly better on a board of AAAA2, with an equity of 0.620. There are still 8 cards an opponent could hold to win, but J8 doesn't lose to the 3 xx underboats.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

ok, the only thing that seems to be left for debate in this topic seems to be the most important question.
When only the jackplays is better than when both cards play if you are up against 2 completly random hands, but possibly a better scenario is when we add certain draw possibilities.
AdKdQcAc2h would be a really nice situation to call off with against someone that will auto bet the river with any draw including the gut ten.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

clearly i meant random cards not random hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

How did BB respond to you in the future? I think the meta game aspects of this are pretty interesting. I am interested to hear how he reacted, that could have a big impact on the rest of the session.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

Wouldn't AAKK2 be the best board? He can't even suck out to pair against you with 104.

EDIT : Make that AAKK8 which is still jack high.

Re: Calling down with J8 unimproved.
 

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How did BB respond to you in the future? I think the meta game aspects of this are pretty interesting. I am interested to hear how he reacted, that could have a big impact on the rest of the session.

[/ QUOTE ]
He ridiculed me to anyone who would listen, but generally seemed to stay away from me when we weren't in the blinds instead of cold-calling. He once folded when I open-raised from the SB. On the other hand, he also called with his own J8 when I open-raised from the SB and ended up capping the river with a 1-card low straight we both had, with 3 to a flush on the board. I think his game changed, but I didn't see this as exploitable. In fact, I think his play improved.

Re: Some answers
 

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YOU CALLED HIM WITH JACK HIGH!


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Actually, I had J8 unimproved. I had AKJ-high, which is stronger than having K-high on a rag board. That is not obvious to most players.